POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS > Non-TDA Tournament and General Poker Rules Discussion

Floor Call situation: Cards are scrambled at Showdown, will one card play ?

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Uniden32:
This happened the other night in one of our multi-table tournaments.

Day 1B of nine flight tournament.  Field of 166 was down to 18 players, playing down to 10 to bag up.

Pre-flop a player goes all in.  Both SB and BB call.  Players check through the flop, turn and river. 

All-in player tables hand, K-high on a 259TA board.

When the SB and BB go to table their hand, they toss their cards over at the same time intermingling them.  The dealer isn't sure who's cards are whose.  Other than the BB claiming the Ace is his, no one at the table can confirm.

The four cards from the SB and BB are 3,6,J,A

Of course, the All-in player wants both hands killed.  Our floor ruled that the since one of the cards beat the All-in player, and all hands would have to be tabled, he would be eliminated.

TD paused the tournament for 2 minutes as he called surveillance to confirm which blind the Ace came from.  Surveillance confirmed it was the BB's and the chips were pushed to that player.

Thoughts ?

Dave Miller:
Of course the all-in wants the hands killed. He's grasping at straws, trying to avoid elimination. While we have to figure out WHO beat him, it's obvious he was beaten, and is eliminated.

The BB said the ace was his and the SB didn't argue? I might let it go at that and not call surveillance. But calling is ok too.

Of course, I might also give a warning to both blinds to properly table the cards.

Nick C:
I have not worked in poker rooms that have the surveillance cameras that are used today. I probably would have divided the pot between the blinds. The all-in is eliminated. Of course, this would depend on the positive identity of the intermingled blinds.

 How would you handle the same situation but, the intermingled cards did not contain an indication that the all-in were beaten?

Dave Miller:

--- Quote from: Nick C on May 14, 2016, 07:24:38 PM ---How would you handle the same situation but, the intermingled cards did not contain an indication that the all-in were beaten?

--- End quote ---
You mean if, using the above example's 259TA board, the four mingled cards were something like 78TT, with the all-in having an Ace?

I.E. Each blind could have had a pair of tens and lose to the all-in's Ace, or one of them could have had trip tens eliminating the all-in. And no surveillance?

Hmmm... Tough situation. And makes me re-think my initial response above.

TDA Rule 13A says "Proper tabling is..." The first word is 'Proper'. If the cards get intermingled, they weren't properly tabled.

Of course, one of the blind could say he tabled his hand, but the other blind threw his cards in causing the intermingling. That leads us to 13B.

TDA Rule 13B says "At showdown a player must protect his hand while waiting for it to be read". Clearly, neither blind protected his hand.

So, with those two rules, I'd rule both blind hands dead. And that goes for the original situation where you know one of the blinds would have knocked out the all-in, but don't know which.

What if the four cards were able to be identified and/or the blinds had no argument about whose cards were whose? I'd allow their claims to stand, unless any player objects. At that point, I's still kill the hands and invoke Rule 1.


And that leads me to a NEW question: If as I suggest, there was no argument, would the dealer be obligated to call the floor?

Nick C:
Hello Dave,
 Absolutely, call the floor. Even when the dealer knows the correct decision, it must come from the floor. I don't believe that players appreciate when the dealer makes a correction, or decision when some blame the dealer for the mistake.

 

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