Author Topic: 50% rule in Cash Game  (Read 2029 times)

Vincenzo Morabito

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50% rule in Cash Game
« on: May 02, 2016, 09:45:49 AM »
Hello Everybody.

A little question.

Cash Game - All-in situation:

Do you prefer to apply the "full bet" rule or the half bet rule, in cash game?

Personally, I prefer to apply  the Half bet in all-in situations. One reason is the different dinamic in playing with real money & commitment.

NL 200
postflop - Pot 200 - Average stack deep x200bb - one player short.
A: Bet 50
B: All-in 95
C: Call 95
D: Call 95
IMHO A  should have an open action.

Thanks for your opinion.

V.M.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 10:26:53 AM by Vincenzo Morabito »

Dave Miller

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Re: 50% rule in Cash Game
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2016, 11:36:30 AM »
I wish there was uniformity on this.

I've seen it ruled one way then, hours later, ruled differently, at the same poker room. Sigh...

Personally, I prefer the 50% rule (as opposed to the OVER 50% rule).
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Brian Vickers

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Re: 50% rule in Cash Game
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2016, 03:50:26 PM »
I strongly prefer full 100% raise required to reopen action on NL and PL.  Keep it consistent between cash and live.

Nick C

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Re: 50% rule in Cash Game
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2016, 07:21:54 PM »
Unfortunately, I had a lengthy reply that I somehow lost before I could copy and paste it!  >:(

 In a nutshell: I believe the difference between Limit and No limit is the fact that every player has a chance to bet all of their chips on their turn to act (No limit) and the initial bettor is locked in to a fixed amount (Limit).

 No limit players have little excuse, or reason to complain, for not betting a larger amount. They had the opportunity to bet whatever they wanted. Limit players are restricted...that's it.

 The subject of when raising is reopened to bettors is much more complicated in no limit. I agree that the 50% rule makes sense, mainly because it is easier to explain and understand.

 A simple formula: In Limit...An all-in of less than 50% of the required amount can be completed to the proper amount. Example: $5 & $10 Limit..on the turn, Player A bets $10 Player B All-in for $14, Player C calls...Player A can only call $4 more because the all-in amount was less than the required amount necessary to re-open the betting. Same situation except Player B goes all-in for $15, Player C calls...Player A can now re-raise to $25 because Player B's all-in was 50% of the required amount.

 No limit requires a 100% raise to reopen the betting to the original bettor.
I made some corrections and added a point or two after reviewing my post from last night. Hope this helps a bit.

Vincenzo, I agree with you, also. I prefer the 50% rule for all games but I don't think it will happen.

 
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 06:15:37 AM by Nick C »

Nick C

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Re: 50% rule in Cash Game
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2016, 06:34:41 AM »
Dave, can you explain the over 50% rule? Are you referring to limit? If so, I understand. The only rule-set that covered this subject was R.O.P.E. However, I believe it was for an accidental placement of chips, i.e. Player A bets $10 and Player B grabs three red chips by mistake and releases them into the pot...by the 50% rule, he is bound to complete his bet to a $10 raise. If we considered the over 50% rule, Player B would have been held to a call.

 I don't believe it pertained to an all-in situation. We might need to contact our illustrious TDA member, and author of R.O.P.E. Mr. Thomas McGee

Vincenzo Morabito

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Re: 50% rule in Cash Game
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2016, 08:52:17 AM »
If the fullbet rule is in effect, (as Nick clearly explained) it usually is in No-Limit games, and the amount of an all-in is less than the minimum bet or the full amount of the previous raise, it's now a "real" raise and doesn't reopen the betting. If the half bet rule is active, and the amount is over half minimum bet it's a raise and reopens the action. Clearly different from the 50% rule when a player places chips without declaration or accidentally under a full raise.

The question is if you prefer to apply "half" of "full" in cash game all-in situation in NL "extending" the used rule of 50% for accident. Indeed we can have the same "value chips" situation (all-in or accidentally), and the basic difference is the remaining chips after placement or not.

I prefer to apply in House rules the "Half Bet all-in" for these reasons in cash game

We are playing a single hand, the action isn't "framed" in a tournament system. We can recharge every hand, the chips value is real and the relationship between action and "value" is primary and direct. To avoid "forced" 3way, 4way pots to protect the "premium hand" game Ex. Player A (Pair of aces) Raises 50 (big bet) - B goes all-in 95 C and D could call with a large range to see the flop.

WSOPMcGee

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Re: 50% rule in Cash Game
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2016, 01:20:36 PM »
Keep it consistent between cash and live.

Um.... Isn't this the same thing Brian?  :D
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Nick C

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Re: 50% rule in Cash Game
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2016, 02:25:18 PM »
Vincenzo,

 I believe the complaint for keeping limit separate from no limit is primarily because of the spread limit games and not the structured limits. Spread limit allows any wager, within the spread, on any street. $1 to $3...$1 to $5...$2 to $10, etc. Fixed bet, or structured limit ($2 & $4, $3 & $6, $10 & $20 etc), is the easiest to understand, at least that has been my experience through many years of teaching. When we consider that the minimum bet of $1 in a $1 to $3 stud game can be initiated by the original bettor on any street, even seventh street. This is where it gets tricky...let's say Player A bets $1, the options to the next active player are simple enough, he may fold call the $1 or raise $1 $2 or $3. If he raises $1 the cap on that round could total $4 if the next two players raise $1 each. This of course applies because of the three raise limit in most rooms. This can not happen in fixed bet limit poker. The spread limit games are unique in that respect. Betting $2 in a $2 to $10 spread limit and having the next player go all-in for $3 qualifies as a raise when using the 50% rule...it will also alter the cap.

 Bottom line...fixed bet, or structured limit, (witch ever you prefer) is the best because it is so much easier to understand. At least, that's how I see it.

WSOPMcGee

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Re: 50% rule in Cash Game
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2016, 10:51:13 PM »
The only rule-set that covered this subject was R.O.P.E. However, I believe it was for an accidental placement of chips, i.e. Player A bets $10 and Player B grabs three red chips by mistake and releases them into the pot...by the 50% rule, he is bound to complete his bet to a $10 raise. If we considered the over 50% rule, Player B would have been held to a call.

 I don't believe it pertained to an all-in situation. We might need to contact our illustrious TDA member, and author of R.O.P.E. Mr. Thomas McGee
You're spot on Nick. The reconsideration of the 50% rule was only referenced due to accidental chip placement and release. All to often we see accidental chip betting errors where the player mistakenly places the incorrect number of chips to make the appropriate call. Then after they realize the error the reach back for the chip to retrieve it and usually say call in the process. However, the 50% rule makes us a TD's force people to raise when clearly they didn't want to and I don't think it's our job to force players to raise in this situation.

As far the topic of 50% or Full Bet in NL and PL cash games, I'm in favor of Full Bet. Both of you, Nick and Vincenzo recited a strong argument for keeping it at 100% as well. First both of you in different verbiage suggested that Player A who bet $50, already had his chance to 1) protect his hand, 2) Make a wager of his choice 3) Has no reason to complain about being called behind because of #2. Secondly, the primary reason for the Full Bet rule is to protect the calling players in the hand. If you use the 50% rule, less players would call for fear of being raised out of the pot. You want more action in poker, not less action. The Full Bet rule induces more action by default. Thirdly, if you allow the 50% rule in NL and PL, then you are allowing the original bettor to act twice in the same betting round.
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