Author Topic: Unclear bet  (Read 2855 times)

alex

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Unclear bet
« on: December 21, 2015, 04:28:25 PM »
Hi all,
This situation occurred in a NLHE tournament.
10 handed table b blinds 75/150.
dealer button seat 8, SB seat 9 ,BB seat 10.
UTG fold, UTG+1 mumble and throw a total of 550 (chip of 500+2 chips of 25), the dealer asked him if it is a call of the big blind,he moved his head down, the dealer called 150 & player 3 to 7 folded their hands in turn.player 8 at the dealer button called 150,so did player 9 and 10.
This is when the UTG+1 player told the dealer that the 550 was a raise not a call.
- we all know that throwing 550 is an immediate raise but what about the player mumble & the dealer clarification .
- did the dealer made a mistake by asking the player who mumbled before he bet?.
Should it be a raise of 550 or just a call .
Ty

Dave Miller

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Re: Unclear bet
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2015, 08:49:05 PM »
The dealer should have announced '550' and not have asked for clarification.

But once he asked, he should have called the floor when the player didn't give a clear response.

In this situation, once the dealer decided it was a call of 150, since the player didn't say anything when a following player called 150, because of that subsequent significant action, it's too late to complain.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Max D

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Re: Unclear bet
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2015, 03:58:12 PM »
I agree with Dave it should have been a raise, but with the dealer clarification, dealer announces 150, and substantial action happening with seat 8,9 and 10 calling with no complaints from UTG+1 it is call.  Player gets his change back and should be clearer next time.
Max D

Nick C

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Re: Unclear bet
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2015, 06:51:02 PM »
Whatever would posses the dealer to think it was a call? I'd rather back-up the action to a raise and give the other players an option to retract their improper bet...or call the 550.

chet

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Re: Unclear bet
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2015, 09:05:52 AM »
Nick:

How can you possibly back it up after THREE players act on the dealers statement?   This is clearly substantial action and I believe has to stand.  The dealer should get a penalty  ;D

To back this up after this much action is just not good practice.  Back it up after the 1st player OK, MAYBE even after 2, but surely not after 3.

Chet

Terence Bertault

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Re: Unclear bet
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2015, 04:21:01 PM »
Obvious raise ... The dealer don't have to ask to the player to clarify this action ... it's a clear raise action ...

Closed this thread ... ^^

Merry Christmas guys !

Nick C

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Re: Unclear bet
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2015, 08:59:01 PM »
Chet,

 I've trained dealers for most of my life and I can't imagine any dealer considering a 500 chip and two 25's a call on a 150 bet. Changing a raise to a call would be unacceptable (to me) as a player and as a floorperson. If the UTG+1 did not draw attention to the controversial action of the dealer...and the next card was dealt, then I would agree that the action would stand. However, that was not the way it was explained. I guess I'd just have to make my decision and use rule #1... the reason: because it would be in the best interest of the game and it would correct the mistake of a very poor dealer!

Mateus93

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Re: Unclear bet
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2015, 10:53:27 AM »
Nick, in this case i dont agree with you...

1st - the player need to make yours decisions clear (ok the 550 raise should be clear enough hehe) but still made the dealer confused, so announce the value would prevented

2nd - player have to pay attetion on the actions and must make be heard in case of any mistake, if he saw 1 player calling a 150 bet and said nothing we can admit he is ok with the 150 bet... but he waited 3 players join the hand to say that something is wrong.

3rd - backing action to the UtG+1 for a raise of 550 can create another embarassing situations. the players who called the 150 in the first situation can reraise now, onde the action has be changed? or just fold the 550 or call ? the players that mucked cant their cards can feel wronged.

4rd - the dealer made a mistake, it can happens but i dont think thats good to fix a mistake with nother mistake... the error occurried so let it pass and pay attention to dont happen again

Nick C

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Re: Unclear bet
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2015, 10:16:48 PM »
Mateus93:

 Okay...I understand how you would rule and I can agree that you made some valid points to support your decision. However, that is not what I would have done. I still don't understand how a dealer could assume that the "multiple chip" combination of a 500 and two 25's would be considered a call facing a 150 bet! ::)

Dave Miller

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Re: Unclear bet
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2015, 10:26:32 PM »
... I still don't understand how a dealer could assume that the "multiple chip" combination of a 500 and two 25's would be considered a call facing a 150 bet! ::)
That's a common rule in friendly home games and pub leagues.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Unclear bet
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2015, 07:43:51 PM »
Dave,
 I'm not understanding what is the "pub" ruling you're speaking of. 
I just can't help but think of the many players that toss in a single 500 chip (facing a 150 blind) and expect everyone to know that they intended to raise without saying anything! That's why the "oversize chip rule" was created...now you expect us to know that the player tossing a 500 chip and two 25's is expecting the dealer to know that he wanted 400 change because he was only calling the 150 BB!??

 It was a raise...period.  The only exception would have been if the player announced call before he put the 500 and two 25's into the betting area...that's it!

Merry Christmas!

 

chet

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Re: Unclear bet
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2015, 09:23:26 AM »
Nick: 

I agree with Dave, but maybe to clarify a bit, this is common "practice", not a rule in home and bar games.

Think of it this way,  the player has no 100 value chips, so to call the bet and get change back, he puts in 2-25 chips and the 500 chip expecting to get 4 100 chips in "change".

Not a good practice, but it is rather common outside of formal venues.

Chet

Nick C

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Re: Unclear bet
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2015, 10:33:55 AM »
Chet,

 I do understand how the caller could be looking for 4 hundred in change...I just can't imagine any dealer assuming that was his intent unless the player stated "call" prior to his action. I don't care if it's a house game or a pub game. Any player, facing a 150 bet, that follows that by putting 550 into the pot, has raised! That's it...well, that's the way I see it, anyway.

Dave Miller

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Re: Unclear bet
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2015, 12:04:59 PM »
I totally agree that it should be a raise. I've faught, but lost that battle.

But pub poker leagues have several characteristics that lead to this rule.

It's short stack super turbo.
It attracts inexperienced players.
It's supposed to be friendly.

We DO enforce the oversize chip rule.

But in a novice's view, putting in 500 or 550 is still expecting change.

Note that in our league, players start with 1,500 chips: 2x500, 4x100, 4x25. So change has to be made often.

Also, whenever this happens, I remind the players that in any casino, it's a raise.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Unclear bet
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2015, 09:28:57 PM »
Hi Dave,

 I guess "pub" poker or certain house games can be more lenient when it comes to raise rules. However, we have had numerous discussions on this Forum about confusion with raises. I'd like to stick with the rules that we know apply for tournament poker in our casinos. If you really want to explore another popular venue for poker, try this online and see what happens. ;D...you will find that your 550 will remain in the pot. I don't want to start looking to online poker for our rules, but sometimes it helps us understand what's allowed in the "brick and mortar."