Author Topic: Weird spot on turn bet all in  (Read 458 times)

StianFrost14

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Weird spot on turn bet all in
« on: April 11, 2018, 05:08:09 PM »
At our local club we play round of each PLO/HE. The situation comes up first hand of one of the holdem rounds. Action pre flop and flop is irrelevant, on turn player 1 is all in. As player 2 is thinking, the dealer notices player 1 has picked up the cards to the guy next to him and has thinks itís Omaha. Whatís the proper way of dealing with this? If it matters, the game is overall friendly, all the players know each other, and we generally let players get away with small mistakes.

MikeB

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Only two "by the book" answers IMO:

1: Less than 100% certain that you know which cards are which: hand is dead.

2: 100.00% certain that you know which cards are which: hand may proceed at TDs discretion. Since the player is all-in I wouldn't expose the cards he's seen to the player contemplating the call.

As for letting a player get away with a small mistake... merely seeing another player's cards after you're all-in isn't a basis for killing the hand. However, if the cards are mixed there's usually no 100% certain way to be sure of the legit 2 cards. The hand is fouled and cannot compete.


BillM16

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Re: Weird spot on turn bet all in
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2018, 07:37:30 AM »
IMO

One of the seats entitled to the hand doesn't have a hand and the other seat (the all-in player) has too many cards.  There has not been Substantial Action at this point as only one player has acted (the all-in player).  So, according to TDA Rule #35, Misdeals and TDA Rule #36, Substantial Action, this is a misdeal and should be dealt again without moving the button.

GreggPath

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Re: Weird spot on turn bet all in
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2018, 01:13:53 PM »
IMO

One of the seats entitled to the hand doesn't have a hand and the other seat (the all-in player) has too many cards.  There has not been Substantial Action at this point as only one player has acted (the all-in player).  So, according to TDA Rule #35, Misdeals and TDA Rule #36, Substantial Action, this is a misdeal and should be dealt again without moving the button.

But we are on the turn so Substantial Action has occurred. Rule 36, part B

Quote
Substantial Action is ... any combination of 3 actions in turn(check, bet, raise, call, fold)

Between pre-flop and flop play, substantial action has to have occurred. I say the hand with 4 cards is dead. Only way I would rule otherwise is if the player hadn't picked up the 2 cards that weren't his and they are still identifiable (for example, if he only started pulling them towards his own cards) .

Nick C

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Re: Weird spot on turn bet all in
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2018, 01:37:12 PM »
I agree 100% with Gregg.

Uniden32

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Re: Weird spot on turn bet all in
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2018, 02:03:40 PM »
IMO

One of the seats entitled to the hand doesn't have a hand and the other seat (the all-in player) has too many cards.  There has not been Substantial Action at this point as only one player has acted (the all-in player).  So, according to TDA Rule #35, Misdeals and TDA Rule #36, Substantial Action, this is a misdeal and should be dealt again without moving the button.

No action ?  They're on the turn ...

...Action pre flop and flop is irrelevant, on turn player 1 is all in...

In my opinion, both hands are dead.

As for Player 1, who's all in, as long as no one has called his all in, I'm likely to give him his chips back. 

If he was facing a bet, prior to going all in, the bet will remain in the pot.

Ralph Brandt
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Isle Casino - Pompano Beach, FL
@uniden32

StianFrost14

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Re: Weird spot on turn bet all in
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2018, 03:20:16 PM »
The issue is not whether or not the hand is live, itís 100% dead. What Iím wondering is what to do with the all in bet. IMO the only way to do it is to give the pot to player 2, but let player 1 keep his all in bet. This is what we ended up doing, and both players were fine with that. However, someone said he should forfeit his all in bet as well. A surprising amount of players and floor/dealers has agreed with this, something that in my opinion is a major overkill.

MikeB

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Re: Weird spot on turn bet all in
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2018, 09:44:13 PM »
The issue is not whether or not the hand is live, itís 100% dead. What Iím wondering is what to do with the all in bet. IMO the only way to do it is to give the pot to player 2, but let player 1 keep his all in bet. This is what we ended up doing, and both players were fine with that.

Stian: TDA Rule 65-A applies:
 
65:  Accidentally Killed / Fouled / Exposed Hands
A: Players must protect their hands at all times, including at showdown while waiting for hands to be read.If the dealer kills a hand by mistake or if in TDs judgement a hand is fouled and cannot be identified to 100% certainty, the player has no redress and is not entitled to a refund of called bets. If the player initiated a bet or raise and hasnít been called, the uncalled amount will be returned.

In your example the hand is ruled to be fouled and is instantly dead at the time of foul; any pending uncalled bet should be returned. The scenario is not unlike the Baumann / Koroknai situation at the WSOP where Gaelle Baumann had not yet called at the point Koroknai's hand was ruled dead. She did not win the uncalled bet which was returned to Koroknai.

Thanks for the great case!
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 09:53:35 PM by MikeB »

BillM16

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Re: Weird spot on turn bet all in
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2018, 02:56:40 PM »


But we are on the turn so Substantial Action has occurred. Rule 36, part B

Yep.  I missed that part. Disregard my response above.