Author Topic: Premature call in turn, before raise amount is established  (Read 6910 times)

Nick C

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Re: Premature call in turn, before raise amount is established
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2015, 11:05:08 AM »
Ken (K-Lo), and Bill:

 I have to say that both of your replies were well written and I couldn't agree more. Your suggestions protect the recreational players and are the fairest solutions to Player C's premature declaration.

 Thanks for your input!

Nick C

Uniden32

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Re: Premature call in turn, before raise amount is established
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2015, 11:15:09 AM »
I agree with Ken on the clarification aspect with the following caveat:

If, when coming over to the table to assess the situation, Player C doesn't convinced me that he meant to "Call" the previous bet (before the raise), I'm holding him responsible for a call of any action taken by Player B, to include an all-in as covered by action out of turn rule.

To use "action isn't complete" as an excuse because Player C didn't allow Player B to finish his raise, and to let Player C off the hook for an all-in, is in my opinion, wrong.
Ralph Brandt
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BillM16

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Re: Premature call in turn, before raise amount is established
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2015, 08:18:19 AM »
It seems to me that this thread discussion and the one held at the 2015 TDA Summit has about the same level of agreement and disagreement on options.  Mike has already added this topic to the list of suggestions to be discussed in the 2017 Summit.  Here is that link:  http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=1193.0.  The 2015 TDA Summit discussion starts at about 23:05 minutes into Day #2 in part #4 of the summit video. Here is that link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bc_TpYIpiD0

These points seem to be in agreement:

  • Player C has violated TDA rules and may be penalized and must make a call of some amount.
  • Player B has done nothing wrong and should not be disadvantaged buy the ruling.

These points seem to be unresolved:

  • If Player C appears to be recreational player who has made an honest mistake:

            Do you make him call a min-raise, a raise up to 5X, or an all-in?
            Do you put him on penalty for one or more orbits?

  • If Player C appears to be an experienced player who may be working an angle:

            Do you tell Player B that Player C must call any raise amount that he makes, including an all-in?
            Do you put him on penalty for one or more orbits?


The 2015 TDA Summit decision was to leave the rules as they stand and leave it to TD discretion.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2015, 08:40:15 AM by BillM16 »

MikeB

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Re: Premature call in turn, before raise amount is established
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2015, 08:40:09 AM »
Bill:

That's a great synopsis...

And there's another possibility... that C is just saying "I'll call your raise", inappropriately of course, but nonetheless that's what he's saying... no angle intended.

And that's exactly what any experienced player has to be saying... he's following the action, he's heard raise announced, and he knows it's a no-limit game. Player C has absolutely no reasonable expectation: 1) of what B's raise will be... it can be anything up to all-in, and 2) that the house will come "rescue" him if the raise is "unusually high".

Also, the TDA steadfastly to it's credit has always looked to adopt rules that don't require interpretation of intent. Rule 1 then allows any adjustment of a ruling based on "fairness" which you can take into account if you think there's no bad intent, or an "honest" or "newbie" mistake...

So I keep returning to this conclusion: If C is an experienced player, knows full well that there was a raise, and knows that raise can be up to all-in, and with all that knowledge and experience declares "call", I can't see any other reasonable ruling other than to bind him to whatever B bets. That only leaves 1) whether you extend a penalty beyond that, and 2) whether you extend some "protection" for a newbie.

Thanks again for the synopsis, it summarizes alot of what has been discussed.