Unusual situation: Putting out new chips on top of prior chips adequate to call

[MrPick80]

Blinds are 800-1600. BB place two chips of 1000. All the players fold, SB complete and the BB put a chips of 100. Cand we consider that action a raise or because ho did not a legal rasie must consider this a check?

[Nick C]

Welcome to the Forum MrPick80,

 I would assume that, by placing a 100 chip in with his 2 1000's, the BB was looking for a 500 chip in change which would complete his 1600 BB. There is no way to rule otherwise (in my opinion) without a verbal clarification. His action would be a call.

[chet]

Agreed!!

Chet

[MikeB]

Blinds are 800-1600. BB place two chips of 1000. All the players fold, SB complete and the BB put a chips of 100. Cand we consider that action a raise or because ho did not a legal rasie must consider this a check?

Hello Pick:

This type of question is the subject of 2013 TDA Rule 44 "Prior Bet Chips Not Pulled In". The bottom line of that rule is that many possibilities exist when putting out new chips on top of (or in replacement of) chips already bet in front of you. Twice now (in 2013 and 2015) the Summit attendees have discussed a series of situations and have not been able to come to super-majority agreement as to how to rule in every case... hence Rule 44 strongly advises players to declare their bet first before adding to or manipulating prior chips... in other words many of these situations will be ruled at TDs discretion.

In the specific case you cite, had the BB put out 400 in new chips or more I believe the majority of 2015 Summit attendees would rule it a required min-raise to 3200 total. This is because putting out 400 more brings his total chips to 2400, at least 50% of a min-raise under 2013 Rule 41 "Raise Amounts".  When a player either silently puts out chips or declares an amount equal to or greater than 50% of a min-raise, he or she will be required to make a full raise.

In your illustration, only 100 in new value was put out, for a total of 2100. Hence the 50% threshold wasn't reached and per clarifying language adopted in 2015, if you don't reach 50% of a raise, it is a call unless "raise" is first declared.

This all said, even this specific situation was not "adopted" as official interpretation at the 2015 Summit. These decisions are for the moment still left to TDs discretion. Some might argue that putting out any additional amount when you already have the call covered is tantamount to declaring intention to raise. It's different than the player who has not yet put out any chips and mistakenly declares or puts out an amount under 50% of a raise and thus is held to a call. Hence the guidance to players in Rule 44 to declare their intentions first.

Thanks for the great question!

[Nick C]

Mike,

 First of all, I'd like to clarify TDA #44. I don't believe that it pertains to this situation. I was under the impression that "pulling in" bets was meant to prevent the dealer from "matching" a players bet with another player and pushing the equal amounts into the pot... thus isolating a raise amount or any discrepancy in amounts.

 The proper dealer procedure, to eliminate the problem described in the original post, would be for the dealer to make the correct change immediately!
 Example: Blinds are 800-1600. BB place two chips of 1000. The dealer should make the correct change for one of the BB's 1000 count chips by placing 600 in the bet area with his other 1000 chip, returning 400 change to the BB. It's making change as you go. I don't especially like this method but it is a solution.

 Another problem I'm having with your answer is the 50% of a min raise reference...I'd like to see the 50% raise rule applied to all forms of poker but for some reason, I thought the TDA only applied it for limit poker. The original question did not mention the limit of the game being played, but my guess is... the question pertained to no limit.

 One other point to consider...the local poker room (Seneca Niagara) does not consider a raise, in no limit, unless at least 100% of the required amount to raise is placed in the bet area!
Player A bets 1000...Player B pushes out 1950 (intending to raise). The 950 is returned to Player B and he has only called!   Not agreeing, just telling it like it is. Without a prior verbal declaration of "raise" or the correct amount, it is a call.

 

[Uniden32]

Another problem I'm having with your answer is the 50% of a min raise reference...I'd like to see the 50% raise rule applied to all forms of poker but for some reason, I thought the TDA only applied it for limit poker. The original question did not mention the limit of the game being played, but my guess is... the question pertained to no limit.

I think you're making the common mistake of combining two separate rules.

41b.  Bet completion with regards to limit poker if someone is all-in for less than the required bet, betting is not re-opened

and

41a.  If a player raises 50% or more of the previous bet but less than the minimum raise, he must make a full raise.

Both are described in TDA 41, but for different scenarios.

[Nick C]

Uniden32,

 I don't think I'm confused, I believe I clearly stated the rules apply for LIMIT...we are talking about no limit, correct? How do you feel about Prior bet chips not pulled in?

[K-Lo]

Blinds are 800-1600. BB place two chips of 1000. All the players fold, SB complete and the BB put a chips of 100. Cand we consider that action a raise or because ho did not a legal rasie must consider this a check?

I think that in theory since BB already has chips in that fully cover the call amount, any addition to that bet would constitute a raise attempt. 

But the common sense ruling here (especially where amateur players are involved) is to clarify that the BB intended to call and accept it as a call, accompanied by an explanation that he should verbalize his intention to call before adding any chips to the pot, even if he only wants to "help" make change. Otherwise he is at the mercy of the TD, who in the future may well rule it a raise.

[BillM16]

Uniden32,

 I don't think I'm confused, I believe I clearly stated the rules apply for LIMIT...we are talking about no limit, correct? How do you feel about Prior bet chips not pulled in?

TDA #41a does not say that the rule only pertains to limit or any other form of poker.  So, the implication is that it includes all forms.

Mike,

 First of all, I'd like to clarify TDA #44. I don't believe that it pertains to this situation. I was under the impression that "pulling in" bets was meant to prevent the dealer from "matching" a players bet with another player and pushing the equal amounts into the pot... thus isolating a raise amount or any discrepancy in amounts.

TDA #44 pertains to a players betting response when he has chips in front of him not yet pulled in from a prior bet.  Nowhere does #44 recommend proper dealer procedures.

[BillM16]

Blinds are 800-1600. BB place two chips of 1000. All the players fold, SB complete and the BB put a chips of 100. Cand we consider that action a raise or because ho did not a legal rasie must consider this a check?

TDA #55 Says "Betting action should not be used to obtain change."  I'd rule it as a CALL and inform and warn the Player about the rule violation.

[MikeB]

Blinds are 800-1600. BB place two chips of 1000. All the players fold, SB complete and the BB put a chips of 100. Cand we consider that action a raise or because ho did not a legal rasie must consider this a check?

I think that in theory since BB already has chips in that fully cover the call amount, any addition to that bet would constitute a raise attempt. 

This is an interesting point and I can't totally disagree with it. IMO a strict interpretation of 41a finds that the rule is not specific to whether the player has a prior-bet call or not. It merely describes chips or verbal of +/- 50% of a raise being the dividing line between call and raise if raise is not first declared.

This is well worth clarifying at 2017: if there is an exception to 41-a when the call amount is already out; i.e. is putting out any amount in this situation equivalent to verbally declaring raise?

[MikeB]

Mike,

 First of all, I'd like to clarify TDA #44. I don't believe that it pertains to this situation. I was under the impression that "pulling in" bets was meant to prevent the dealer from "matching" a players bet with another player and pushing the equal amounts into the pot... thus isolating a raise amount or any discrepancy in amounts.

TDA #44 exactly applies to this situation. The recommended procedure you refer to is different: See RP-2 on page 10 of the 2013 Rules and Procedures:
http://www.pokertda.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Poker_TDA_Rules_2013_Version_1.1_Final_longform_PDF.pdf

Another problem I'm having with your answer is the 50% of a min raise reference...I'd like to see the 50% raise rule applied to all forms of poker but for some reason, I thought the TDA only applied it for limit poker. The original question did not mention the limit of the game being played, but my guess is... the question pertained to no limit.

Rule 41 is not specific to limit or no-limit.  I believe the 50% standard you're referring to pertains to when a bet can be completed in limit, and when it is considered a completed bet (at 50% per RRoP).

One other point to consider...the local poker room (Seneca Niagara) does not consider a raise, in no limit, unless at least 100% of the required amount to raise is placed in the bet area!
Player A bets 1000...Player B pushes out 1950 (intending to raise). The 950 is returned to Player B and he has only called!   Not agreeing, just telling it like it is. Without a prior verbal declaration of "raise" or the correct amount, it is a call.

Under TDA rules, if the player silently pushed out at least 1500 he would be held to a min-raise. If less, it would be ruled a call unless raise was first declared.

[Nick C]

BillM16, and Mike B,

 Will you explain what pulling in a bet means? There is no time that any dealer will pull in any bet until the round of betting is complete. The only method I've ever used was to isolate a raise when action is head to head. In a normal betting round when the UTG bets, his bet remains in the bet area, or across the bet line. the next player will follow and so on around the table until the action returns to the last player. The wagers remain in front of each bettor until the round of betting is complete. The point is; those bets are not to be "pulled in" to the pot prior to the last players action. The reasons are obvious...if a player behind the bettor raises, the dealer and the players can clearly see who has raised, and who has yet to act and who is already in for any bets.

 The only time I ever heard of bets being "pulled in" was when it was introduced at the 2011 Summit. It is also my understanding that "pulled in" was only used when players were all in for equal bets, and one of the remaining players wanted to raise. Example Player A bets 100...Player B raises to 200...Player C calls 200...back to player A who goes all-in with 575 total. The dealer Pulls in 200 from all three players isolating the required amount (375) to call.

 If I'm wrong on this and wrong on the 50% rule, I think we'd better clarify (by example) when a specific rule applies.

[BillM16]

BillM16, and Mike B,

 Will you explain what pulling in a bet means? There is no time that any dealer will pull in any bet until the round of betting is complete.

Nick, clearly you just explained what pulling in a bet means.  I cannot imagine why you would want another explanation.  You obvioulsy realize that bets are often made when the player has chips in front of them that have not been pulled in.  And under certain circumstances, as you accurately described, may make a bet after their previously bet chips have been pulled in.  What more is needed?  The rule attempts to address the more complicated situation where the bet is made with the chips not pulled in.  I don't think anyone in the TDA is suggesting that always pulling in the chips before the player bets is a viable solution.

Regards,
B~   

[Nick C]

BillM16,

 Bets should never be pulled in by the dealer, according to the TDA. I described the only time that the practice might be helpful. I obviously am not doing a good job of separating the two different situations. I thought that "pulling in" bets was for isolating a raise (only). Not pulling in bets as the bets are made, :- Dealers should never do that, never!

I'm confused again, sorry.