Author Topic: Players with 3 cards  (Read 5029 times)

Martin Roy TD

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Players with 3 cards
« on: July 22, 2015, 06:43:54 AM »
Hi Guys,

Situation :
We have substantial action and the player on the button realize that he have 3 cards.

Decision:
It's hand is dead because of the substantial action.

Action continue...
Do we burn the flop and try to protect to board as much as we can or we burn another one ?

Thanks

Max D

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Re: Players with 3 cards
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2015, 02:32:01 PM »
I would agree with the dead hand (player with three card) and I think flop is already burned, it keeps the right cards in the right orders for the flop.  Better integrity...
« Last Edit: July 23, 2015, 09:51:12 AM by bonobo »
Max D

Luca P.

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Re: Players with 3 cards
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2015, 04:44:33 AM »
I'm always for the "keep the board as more intact as possible", which means in this case not to burn and turn the flop.
I don't see any problems doing this because we don't know which card was actually the burn one, and so do players, so at least let's keep the board intact even if the players' cards aren't.

#EDIT
Scenario 2
Similar, we have SA, but two players discover the have 3 cards each.
What do you do, a part from gun the dealer down?  ;D
« Last Edit: July 23, 2015, 05:22:33 AM by Luca P. »
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Martin Roy TD

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Re: Players with 3 cards
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2015, 05:39:33 AM »
In your scenario #2, because of the substantial action I will killed both hand.

Luca P.

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Re: Players with 3 cards
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2015, 05:56:28 AM »
In your scenario #2, because of the substantial action I will killed both hand.
Ofc, i was talking about bord cards... how would you deal with them?
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Martin Roy TD

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Re: Players with 3 cards
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2015, 06:32:59 AM »
Good Question

If you have 2 dead hands (2 extra cards) it would modify the flop for sure.

I'll probably count them as like boxed cards an burn flop, burn turn....

So if I'm doing this with 2 dead hands, I should do it with 1 dead hand.

Nick C

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Re: Players with 3 cards
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2015, 06:37:06 AM »
Gentlemen:
 These scenarios can become more complicated when one of the players holding the extra card has acted, or is one of the blinds. The hands with too many cards are certainly dead. What do we do with the blinds?

 As far as the original question, with only one player having an extra card, as long as substantial action has occurred the hand will play out to conclusion. In my opinion, I would not burn a  card before the flop. This would assure that the proper board will be preserved. The single player with too many cards has a dead hand. Period.

In the case of multiple players with too many cards, there are two different decisions I'd apply: #1) if recognized before substantial action, I'd rule a misdeal...#2) If two or more players have too many cards and they are not yet involved in betting but substantial action has occurred in front of them, their hands are dead and the hand will play to conclusion. #2.1) Because the proper board would be impossible to recreate, I would proceed by burning and turning the remaining deck stub as usual.

 There are always unusual situations that can complicate what sometimes appears to have a very simple solution. Always try to protect the proper cards whenever possible. This means that: we must strive to preserve the board that would have tabled if no mistake were made.

 In the original situation with one player holding an extra card, pre-flop followed by substantial action, the player with too many cards has a dead hand and the flop will be turned without a burn. In the next situation where two players have too many cards, their hands are dead and the flop would be preceded by a burn...what else could we do?
« Last Edit: July 23, 2015, 10:49:03 AM by Nick C »

Brian Vickers

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Re: Players with 3 cards
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2015, 02:14:13 PM »
Player on button has dead hand.  Everything else plays exactly the same.  Burn a card before the flop just like you normally do.

What if a player in the middle had 1 card and substantial action happened, would we burn two cards? No.
What if two players had 3 cards, would we start scrambling them and grab one for the flop to make the turn and river right? No. 

No need to complicate matters further.

K-Lo

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Re: Players with 3 cards
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2015, 11:43:07 AM »
Player on button has dead hand.  Everything else plays exactly the same.  Burn a card before the flop just like you normally do.

What if a player in the middle had 1 card and substantial action happened, would we burn two cards? No.
What if two players had 3 cards, would we start scrambling them and grab one for the flop to make the turn and river right? No. 

No need to complicate matters further.

I agree with Bryan and I expect this is pretty much standard.

Although it is true there are good reasons to try to keep the board cards as intact as possible (and certain procedures such as how to deal after a premature turn or river, etc. are based on this), I think factors that may affect game integrity take precedence.

The purpose of burning is to better protect the identity of the board cards. I think it would be unsafe to allow play to continue for any material amount of time with the first board card sitting at the top of the deck waiting to be dealt, yet potentially exposed as pre-flop action occurs or has occurred.

Nick C

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Re: Players with 3 cards
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2015, 12:19:16 PM »
What difference does it make which player has the extra card? If one extra card were dealt prior to the flop, the next three cards would be the "proper flop." I also believe that preserving the proper flop is far more practical than worrying about the protection of the top card without a burn to cover it. That is not the only purpose of the burn, and besides, what if the burn were marked? Wouldn't that be just as important?

 Why would anyone rather burn a card that we know is positively one of the proper flop cards? Kill the players hand (the one holding 3 cards) and play on without a burn.

 I don't like your ruling and I can't believe we can be so far apart on almost everything. Unbelievable.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 01:29:11 PM by Nick C »

K-Lo

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Re: Players with 3 cards
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2015, 07:13:50 AM »
Actually, you don't know for certain that the third card "should" be the proper burn anyways, at the point when the card was discovered,  How do we know whether the player was dealt the third card on this deal or on a previous deal? What happens if the player had two extra cards, possibly left from a previous hand (this is not uncommon). What do you do then?

A marked card that happens to be the top card IS bad. And it would be bad if the action is live and players are making decisions potentially with the benefit of knowledge of that mark. Another reason for burning in this situation.

Brian Vickers

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Re: Players with 3 cards
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2015, 12:47:21 PM »
Ken, I actually had started typing out those points as well, but it was getting too long so I took them out, good points :)
Part of the reason for it being a dead hand is that a player could have a 3rd card because he held a card, in which case the remaining cards were dealt and the burn actually is in the right place it's just you have someone potentially outright cheating and have to kill his hand accordingly.

Nick C

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Re: Players with 3 cards
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2015, 05:02:58 PM »
Are you telling me, that holding a card from the previous hand is common? You've got to be kidding me. My use of rule #1 would never allow for a burn in the situation we are discussing, sorry. I would never like that call if I were involved in the hand. I really wish I could agree with you but I can't.

Uniden32

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Re: Players with 3 cards
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2015, 08:22:08 AM »
The player with the fouled hand has a dead hand.

Rest of the hand plays out as normal.  I'm not adjusting the flop, nor skipping any burns.

Burn, Flop
Burn, Turn
Burn, River

... just like normal.
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Nick C

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Re: Players with 3 cards
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2015, 01:12:31 PM »
Ralph, Good to hear from you ;D

 I base my decision in part on one of the more common errors that dealers make, exposing a card during the deal. The situations are different for sure, but the method used preserves the "proper flop." Exchanging the exposed card with what would have been the "proper burn." You can also consider the "uncovered" top card that will be used in the flop when this occurs.

 Why I prefer my method: Without a burn the "proper" board remains intact 100%... Your method: Burning and turning will guarantee that one of the flop cards and the turn and river will not be the proper board! That's 60% (3 of 5) not proper cards.

 Not a big issue because it should be a very rare occurrence, but that's how I see it.