Author Topic: NL Hold'em - Player with 3 cards when all-in called  (Read 10118 times)

Boris Mauboussin

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NL Hold'em - Player with 3 cards when all-in called
« on: June 10, 2015, 12:11:03 PM »
Hello,

I just had this situation on a tournament game.

2 players get all-in on the flop and reveal cards

A player reveal 3 cards


What is  the rule here ?

I decided to apply the 3 cards rule, delcare a missdeal and cancel the hand.

What would you do in this case ?

=)

MikeB

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Re: NL Hold'em - Player with 3 cards when all-in called
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2015, 12:20:12 PM »
Hi Boris:

Great question. If using TDA Rules, Substantial Action has occurred and a misdeal cannot be called. The hand must proceed, and a hand with 3 cards is dead.

See TDA Rules 34-C (Misdeals), and 35 (Substantial Action):

http://www.pokertda.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Poker_TDA_Rules_2013_Version_1.1_Final_handout_PDF.pdf

Brian Vickers

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Re: NL Hold'em - Player with 3 cards when all-in called
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2015, 01:20:15 PM »
A player with more or less than the required number of cards has a dead hand at the moment it is discovered.  In your example, the player's hand should have been killed and the entire pot pushed to the other player (since it was heads up).  If a player is cheating, we can't allow them to put themselves in a "freeroll" position where if we catch them they get their money back, if they win they hide the 3rd card or if they lose they just say "nope, I have a 3-card hand, it's fouled."

I had this happen to me today, heads up to the flop, player discovered a 3rd card in his hand (might have mixed in when dealer was mucking another hand or something).  I announced the hand dead.  He said "I had a chip on top of it, how can you kill a protected hand?" to which I replied "How could your hand be considered protected if a 3rd card was just mixed in?"
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 01:21:49 PM by Brian Vickers »

Nick C

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Re: NL Hold'em - Player with 3 cards when all-in called
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2015, 04:37:25 AM »
Mike, Isn't that a tough call. to kill the hand? I would think that too many cards would trump substantial action. I'm just thinking of those situations when a player is very low on chips and decides to go all-in during the deal, or happens to be all-in on the BB. Killing his hand because two cards (possibly) have stuck together during the deal is too extreme...don't you think?

 I might lean in the direction that Boris took. Why would any player, intentionally, go all-in and turn over 3 cards? Tough way to exit any tournament if you ask me.

chet

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Re: NL Hold'em - Player with 3 cards when all-in called
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2015, 09:46:05 AM »
Nick:

You goin' soft?

By this time in the hand the player should certainly have known that he had a fouled hand.  There is NO EXCUSE for playing with either too many or too few hole cards.  THAT PLAYERS HAND IS DEAD, Period!!

Chet

Nick C

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Re: NL Hold'em - Player with 3 cards when all-in called
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2015, 10:47:05 AM »
Chet, I agree the hand is dead...however, I believe the hand should be ruled dead automatically. In other words, the dead hand should "trump" any substantial action from ever happening. This is tournament poker we are discussing, and my feelings have always leaned in the direction of: the best hand gets the pot. The way I see it, killing the players hand and "giving" his chips away to another player is not in the best interest of the game.

 I agree with the decision Boris made, and with most of what Brian wrote. I also think that my last post covers the example where the all-in player is unaware of the identity of his cards, but is all-in because it was his blind (a forced all-in) and he would be obligated to play to the showdown.

MikeB

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Re: NL Hold'em - Player with 3 cards when all-in called
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2015, 12:09:51 PM »
Mike, Isn't that a tough call. to kill the hand? I would think that too many cards would trump substantial action.

The original question was whether a misdeal can be declared and the chips returned to the players. That's why substantial action is important. If a 3-card hand was discovered before substantial action you could declare a misdeal. But the point about SA is that once it occurs a misdeal cannot be called and the hand must proceed. Hence the fouled hand with 3 cards at showdown is dead.

Nick C

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Re: NL Hold'em - Player with 3 cards when all-in called
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2015, 01:47:43 PM »
Mike, I agree with you 100% if the hand went to showdown...I just mentioned a few scenarios when I would return the chips and deal again. The original post was on the flop.

MikeB

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Re: NL Hold'em - Player with 3 cards when all-in called
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2015, 03:55:45 PM »
Mike, I agree with you 100% if the hand went to showdown...I just mentioned a few scenarios when I would return the chips and deal again. The original post was on the flop.

It's on the flop with everyone all-in... hence effectively at showdown. And you can't get to the flop without substantial action occurring pre-flop.