Author Topic: Undercall rule 37 again  (Read 5980 times)

Guillaume Gleize

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Undercall rule 37 again
« on: May 30, 2015, 08:58:41 AM »
Hello,
Please I would like to have the advice of several of you about a VERBAL undercall (no chips pushed forward):
A open bet 1000 – B Raises 5000 – C didn’t pay attention and pushes 3000 (while saying nothing + another player D to speak behind)
DOES THE 3000 MUST BE PUT IN THE MIDDLE IF C CHOOSE TO FOLD?
Sorry but in my humble point of view the rule 37 is not clear here because there are no chips on the table.
TY
« Last Edit: May 30, 2015, 10:20:06 AM by Guillaume Gleize »

Nick C

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Re: Undercall rule 37 again
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2015, 08:20:41 PM »
Guillaume,
You're not the only one confused by TDA #37...I've always liked the idea of backing up the bet when it was a mistake, as long as the next player has not acted. However, because it is tournament poker, Accepted Action would force player C to at least call. The rule is too complicated for me.

MikeB

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Re: Undercall rule 37 again
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2015, 01:26:54 PM »
Guillaume:

Rule 37 answers the question: when must an undercall be adjusted to a full call and when might a player be allowed to leave the undercall in and fold. In all cases either heads-up or facing the opening bet an undercall must be made a full call.

In other situations, at TDs discretion, the player might be allowed to leave the undercall in and fold. The rule does not guarantee that such players always have the right to leave the underbet in and fold, it rather leaves it to TD discretion, keeping in mind that an important responsibility of players is to follow the action (Rule 2). Some TDs rarely recognize undercalls and simply require all betting action be adjusted to the proper amount. Other TDs will allow the player to leave the bet and fold in cases of "gross misunderstanding". Yet others may allow "leaving and folding" more frequently. In the past, the TDA has debated the subject of gross misunderstanding and attempted to set a percentage for that, but nothing was agreed to.

In the specific case you cite, while C technically was not calling the opening bet, 2000 seems like a small absolute difference in the bet amount. I would tend almost always to require a player to bring their bet up to a full call in such situations and would not allow C to leave the 3k in and fold.

That's a long answer to your question, the short answer is it's your discretion but (to your sentence in caps) if you do allow C to fold, yes the 3000 must remain in the pot because this was a bet in turn and chips in the pot in turn remain in the pot.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 12:58:14 PM by MikeB »

Guillaume Gleize

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Re: Undercall rule 37 again
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2015, 08:17:55 AM »
What stupid I am:

I started clearly my question and gave you A WRONG EXEMPLE! (sorry)

So I wanted your advice about a VERBAL undercall (no chips pushed forward):
A open bet 1000 – B Raises 5000 – C didn’t pay attention and SAYS "3000!" WHILE PUSHING NOTHING (+ another player D to speak behind)
SO DO YOU THINK THE 3000 SHOULD BE ACTUALLY FORCED TO BE PUSHED IN THE MIDDLE IF THE TD WAS TO ALLOW C TO FOLD?
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 08:23:56 AM by Guillaume Gleize »

Brian Vickers

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Re: Undercall rule 37 again
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2015, 12:45:41 PM »
What stupid I am:

I started clearly my question and gave you A WRONG EXEMPLE! (sorry)

So I wanted your advice about a VERBAL undercall (no chips pushed forward):
A open bet 1000 – B Raises 5000 – C didn’t pay attention and SAYS "3000!" WHILE PUSHING NOTHING (+ another player D to speak behind)
SO DO YOU THINK THE 3000 SHOULD BE ACTUALLY FORCED TO BE PUSHED IN THE MIDDLE IF THE TD WAS TO ALLOW C TO FOLD?


The 3000 should be bound to the pot.  Ideally the player should be given his options prior to making his decision.  The player should be let know that he may forfeit the 3000 and fold or call 5000 but no other option will be available.  If C opts to fold, the 3000 must still be placed in the pot as it is bound.  Verbally stating 3000 or pushing 3000 out should be treated as the exact same thing.

MikeB

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Re: Undercall rule 37 again
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2015, 12:55:35 PM »
So I wanted your advice about a VERBAL undercall (no chips pushed forward):
A open bet 1000 – B Raises 5000 – C didn’t pay attention and SAYS "3000!" WHILE PUSHING NOTHING (+ another player D to speak behind)
SO DO YOU THINK THE 3000 SHOULD BE ACTUALLY FORCED TO BE PUSHED IN THE MIDDLE IF THE TD WAS TO ALLOW C TO FOLD?


The question is whether there is any difference in treatment between the verbal statement of a chip amount vs. pushing out the same amount of chips silently.

A similar question was discussed some time back as to whether there is a difference under the multiple-chip raise rule of saying an under-raise vs. pushing out the same amount of chips. Example: Post-flop Player A opens for 1000. Action is on B who either silently pushes out 1400 or says "1400", (not "Raise, 1400"). I believe the concensus is to treat these actions the same as not meeting the 50% min-raise standard. This assumes the word "raise" is not first in the declaration, in which case it would be a min raise.

Back to your example, C either says "3000" or silently pushes out 3000, I would treat them the same: it's TD's discretion as to whether to allow C to put out the 3k and fold, or require C to make a full call of 5k.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 01:53:37 PM by MikeB »

Guillaume Gleize

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Re: Undercall rule 37 again
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2015, 02:21:15 AM »
THANK YOU so much guys for those clear answers I will follow.

I hope this strange question won't seem too obvious for you thus making me look like a real newbye LOL. I was answered the other way (verbal undercall don't have to be pushed) by some TD from this forum some years ago and I failed to check this one back.

Also thank to a good floor of mine working on EPTs and some other big tourneys and who noticed this wrong point on my rulebook ... so I asked the question directly on this forum via my Iphone DURING MY TOURNAMENT (so the prior error of exemple: I was managing a 3 events Poker festival together around Paris) ...  ;)

Let's stay alert on the permanent rule changes around the world on the biggest tourneys and let's keep on exchanging infos between us pro staff to stay at our best.

Regards,
GG




BillM16

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Re: Undercall rule 37 again
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2015, 11:17:51 AM »

A open bet 1000 – B Raises 5000 – C didn’t pay attention and SAYS "3000!" WHILE PUSHING NOTHING

Was C asking if the raise was to 3000?  If yes, the dealer should have provided the correct answer.  If no, the 3000 must be added to the pot and C has an option to either fold or complete the call to 5000.

Spence

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Re: Undercall rule 37 again
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2015, 07:09:17 AM »

A open bet 1000 – B Raises 5000 – C didn’t pay attention and SAYS "3000!" WHILE PUSHING NOTHING
Was C asking if the raise was to 3000?  If yes, the dealer should have provided the correct answer.  If no, the 3000 must be added to the pot and C has an option to either fold or complete the call to 5000.
+1
Good point to make about verbalizing the 3000 amount.  Can we for sure say he wasn't asking how much the amount was?  If it's pretty clear then I agree with everything else.  3000 stays in no matter what.