Author Topic: Raises: Debated long ago, yet still not resolved.  (Read 2247 times)

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Raises: Debated long ago, yet still not resolved.
« on: April 22, 2015, 05:32:16 AM »
This thread goes back over 3 years...it was one of the most debated in October of 2011 (6 pages of discussion). Originally TDA #31 in 2009, then #38 after the 2011 Summit, and currently #41 B. Here we are heading into the 2015 Summit and the rule still needs change. There's certainly enough said if you take the time to read the old Post, but if I can sum up my main concern it pertains to the reference to no-limit and pot limit. 41: Raises, B) In no-limit and pot limit, an all-in wager of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted....

 In my opinion, we need to replace "full raise" with:  full bet. Secondly, clarify the fact that that a player who checked can "re-enter" the betting when his check is followed be any legal bet.

 http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=515.0
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 06:40:41 AM by Nick C »

WSOPMcGee

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 325
    • The R.O.P.E.
Re: Raises: Debated long ago, yet still not resolved.
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2015, 05:49:11 PM »
This thread goes back over 3 years...it was one of the most debated in October of 2011 (6 pages of discussion). Originally TDA #31 in 2009, then #38 after the 2011 Summit, and currently #41 B. Here we are heading into the 2015 Summit and the rule still needs change. There's certainly enough said if you take the time to read the old Post, but if I can sum up my main concern it pertains to the reference to no-limit and pot limit. 41: Raises, B) In no-limit and pot limit, an all-in wager of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted....

 In my opinion, we need to replace "full raise" with:  full bet. Secondly, clarify the fact that that a player who checked can "re-enter" the betting when his check is followed be any legal bet.

 http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=515.0


Disagree Nick. The term "Full Bet" means the entire wager. Whereas, the term "Full Raise" means the amount raised over the previous bet or minimum bet required.

@wsopmcgee on Twitter

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Raises: Debated long ago, yet still not resolved.
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2015, 07:41:24 PM »
Thomas,
 Would you agree there is a difference between a bet and a raise? Full bet, legal bet...it's makes little difference. I'm trying to let players know that if they check, there are still conditions when they can re-enter the betting. To me, it reads like you can not check and raise, and we know that's not correct. Take a good look at TDA #41 B and tell me you couldn't write something better. While your at it, take a look at your R.O.P.E. and change it there, too. Raise rule #31.

 I'm not about to rewrite the 25 posts I've already written on this subject, so you can go back and read what was written over the last 4 years and you'll see that there are many others that agreed to a change. Just trying to bring it back to the table, that's all.

WSOPMcGee

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 325
    • The R.O.P.E.
Re: Raises: Debated long ago, yet still not resolved.
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2015, 01:46:43 AM »
Ok lemme see if I can tackle this and simplify it in a clear and concise manner.

As it reads now - TDA Rule 41:

41: Raises
A: A raise must be at least the size of the largest previous bet or raise of the current betting round. If a player raises 50% or more of the previous bet but less than the minimum raise, he must make a full raise. The raise will be exactly the minimum raise allowed.
B: In no-limit and pot limit, an all-in wager of less than a full raise does not reopen the betting to a player who has already acted and is not facing at least a full raise when the action returns to him. In limit, at least 50% of a full raise is required to re-open betting for players who have already acted. See Illustration Addendum.
==============================================================================================================================================================================
New Version

41: Raises
In all forms of poker, a bet or raise must be greater than or equal to the size of the previous bet or raise with the exception of an all-in wager. In No Limit and Pot Limit, the betting is not reopened to a player who has previously acted in the current betting round by checking, calling or betting AND is NOT facing a full bet or raise when the action returns to them. They may ONLY call or fold. In Limit Poker, the Half Bet Rule applies. See below.
 A: Half Bet Rule - In all forms of poker, if a player makes a bet of 50% or more of the previous bet or raise that is less than a minimum raise then he must complete the bet to the full minimum raise. In Limit Poker ONLY, if an all-in bet meets the Half Bet Rule criteria, THEN the betting is reopened to players that have previously acted in the current betting round. Otherwise, the betting is closed and they may only call or fold.
==================================================================================================================================================
It's late at night, that was my best stab at it for right now.

While were on the topic of rewording rules, #38, #39, #40 are also pleonastic and loquacious.

 
@wsopmcgee on Twitter

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3080
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Raises: Debated long ago, yet still not resolved.
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2015, 06:16:22 AM »
Thomas:

 I like the change because you make reference to the player that checked. I have to look at the half the bet wording a little closer. Possibly there could be some mention of the "cap" on raises in those limit games.

 It is a definite improvement.