declaring a wrong hand at showdown: how to handle ?

[cloudtiger]

2 players in a hand. player A bets every street and is called by player B. the board shows Ks 10d 7h 3s 2c. after calling on the river player B asks player A " have you got the king? " player A  responds " yes ". player B slides his cards forward but the dealer stops the cards from hitting the muck and asks player A to table his hand. player A tables 5c 5s for a pair of fives, player B then tables Ac 7d for a higher pair. the dealer awards the pot to player B. player A complains that because player B tried to muck his hand he (player A) should be awarded the pot and the floor is called. the floor upholds awarding the pot to player B and gives player A a warning about his actions in lying about his hand at showdown.
do you agree with this ruling and what action would you take against player A

[Brian Vickers]

Sounds like this was very well policed by the dealer and floor. 
Player A may have gotten off a little light with a warning (I might have given him a half-round penalty to really drive it home) but I don't hate the warning here.

[cloudtiger]

Thank you Brian, that was my feeling too, but what id really like to know is there any specific rule against declaring a wrong hand at showdown in an attempt to get your opponent to muck his hand

[Nick C]

Hello cloudtiger,

 I agree with Brian and the floor's decision. I like to use Chuck Ferry's Rules Of Poker for simple direct reference to these situations. Under Etiquette: "There are many situations in the poker room where action is considered improper, and it would not be proper to assign a specific penalty for them. A specific penalty can not be used because the severity of the infraction is determined by the intent of the player." It goes on to include: "Deliberately overstating your hand."

The intent of Player A was to get Player B to dump his hand, which is what he did. Fortunately, for Player B, the dealer was sharp enough to save the cards from the muck and keep both hands alive. This is why the order of showdown must be followed...the aggressor shows first. That means: properly exposes, or properly tables his hand face-up for all to see. Tournament poker can not afford to allow any chips to go to the wrong player...it could very well alter the entire outcome of the event.

[MikeB]

Hi Cloud: It's your discretion, and whatever the player gets it's their responsibility.

Personally I would tend towards a warning at first in this particular case because B brought a bit of this on himself by asking A what he had, then voluntarily mucking his hand. If A had blurted out "I have a King" to start then I'd tend to favor at least a one-hand penalty for first offense.

[WSOPMcGee]

Thank you Brian, that was my feeling too, but what id really like to know is there any specific rule against declaring a wrong hand at showdown in an attempt to get your opponent to muck his hand

Yes there is:

WSOP Rule 60
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Cards speak. Verbal declarations as to the content of a player's hand are not binding; however at Rio discretion, any player deliberately
miscalling his hand will be subject to penalty in accordance with Rule No. 92.

WSOP Rule 92 - In its sole and absolute discretion, Rio may impose penalties ranging from a verbal warning, one missed hand away from the table up to
disqualification and expulsion from all Rio casino properties. Penalties will be invoked in cases of soft-play, abuse or disruptive behavior. A
penalty will also be imposed if a player throws a card off the table, forcefully mucks their cards causing one or all cards to turn over, violates
the one-player-to-a-hand rule or engages in similar behavior.
*NOTE* There are subsections A thru F here that outline the types of penalties and range of discretion that the staff is allowed when imposing penalties.

RRoP Section 3 General Poker Rules and R.O.P.E. in The Showdown Rule 2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared. Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard a winning hand is unethical and may result in forfeiture of the pot.

TDA Rules Section Pots/Showdowns Rule 12: Declarations. Cards Speak at Showdown
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cards speak to determine the winner. Verbal declarations of hand value are not binding at
showdown. However, deliberately miscalling a hand may be penalized. Any player, in the hand
or not, should speak up if he thinks a mistake is being made in the reading of hands.


I had similar situation in a recent event. Warnings here do not send much of a message IMO. Especially in this instance where the player specifically miscalls their hand in an effort to get the opposing player to muck their hand without a showdown.

In the instance I witnessed, Player A check called Player B to showdown at the River.
Upon being called:
Player B asked Player A, "Do you have anything?"
Player A said, "Well what do you got?"

Player B says, "Pocket 5's!"
Player A says, "Well lets see'em"

Player B then tables their hand and says, "I don't really have anything, just K high. Just wanted to see what you had so I didn't have to show."

Then disgust and disdain began to make its way around the table with each player completely taken aback by the actions of Player B.

[Spence]

In the instance I witnessed, Player A check called Player B to showdown at the River.
Upon being called:
Player B asked Player A, "Do you have anything?"
Player A said, "Well what do you got?"
Player B says, "Pocket 5's!"
Player A says, "Well lets see'em"
Player B then tables their hand and says, "I don't really have anything, just K high. Just wanted to see what you had so I didn't have to show."

First off,
That's a penalty under the rules above.  Nice and clear.
Second, 
In the original scenario, if the dealer does not prevent player B from mucking his cards and Player A is forced to open with what is essentially nothing do you impose a penalty on Player A?  Player should have seen the hand before mucking but did not and essentially penalized himself.  Player B was angling when he asked what player A had. Do we penalize player A for re-angling back?

[WSOPMcGee]

In the instance I witnessed, Player A check called Player B to showdown at the River.
Upon being called:
Player B asked Player A, "Do you have anything?"
Player A said, "Well what do you got?"
Player B says, "Pocket 5's!"
Player A says, "Well lets see'em"
Player B then tables their hand and says, "I don't really have anything, just K high. Just wanted to see what you had so I didn't have to show."

First off,
That's a penalty under the rules above.  Nice and clear.
Second, 
In the original scenario, if the dealer does not prevent player B from mucking his cards and Player A is forced to open with what is essentially nothing do you impose a penalty on Player A?  Player should have seen the hand before mucking but did not and essentially penalized himself.  Player B was angling when he asked what player A had. Do we penalize player A for re-angling back?

Player A is not re-angling Spence. They are the caller. There was a bet and call on every street (check, bet, call or as we say here Check Called to Showdown). They have a right to see the hand they called first before tabling their hand. Player A had sniffed out Player B's deception and rightfully so.

[Spence]

Tom I meant in the scenario by the original poster.

2 players in a hand. player A bets every street and is called by player B. After calling on the river player B asks player A " have you got the king? " player A  responds " yes ". player B slides his cards forward...

In the original scenario, if the dealer does not prevent player B from mucking his cards and Player A is forced to open with what is essentially nothing do you impose a penalty on Player A?  Player should have seen the hand before mucking but did not and essentially penalized himself.  Player B was angling when he asked what player A had. Do we penalize player A for re-angling back?

Maybe angling was the wrong word choice.  When B asks A if he has the king I think he's trying to protect giving away information about his hand - hence the folding motion when A responds with a "Yes".  Should B lay down his hand without seeing those cards? No, of course not, but he does.  At this point if we send the pot to Player A and he is forced to open his hand to lay claim to the pot do we enforce a penalty for him lying about it's contents?