POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS > Suggestions for new TDA rules and amendments to existing rules READ-ONLY ARCHIVES Pre-2015 Summit

Retrieval of prior bet chips: allowable? commits to action or can still fold?

(1/5) > >>

MikeB:
From recent offline discussion:

Situation:

Blinds 200-400.

Player A announces a bet of 1200 and puts out three 500's.

Player B declares raise to 3000 and puts out three 1000's

Player A thinks a bit then pulls back one of the 500's (from his prior bet), leaving two 500's undisturbed, as if he is intending to either call or raise. He thinks a bit longer then tosses the 500 back onto his prior bet and mucks his cards.

A valid fold, or should A be required to at least call here?  If a valid fold, should pulling back chips then folding be discouraged?

Nick C:
Mike:
 If I'm understanding you correctly, he has no right to pull back 500. He raised to 1200 so he has 300 change coming. The change should come from the dealer if Player A decides to fold. Maybe I'm missing something.

MikeB:
As described in the OP, he's pulling back a chip or chips with the implied intention of adding additional chips to at least call the 3000 if not raise...

... then after some tanking, with the chip pulled back, he then tosses it back onto the other two 500's, and mucks his cards...

Legit move, not legit... ? Should be held to at least a call, or the fold is acceptable?  Want to discourage this or consider it part of the game?  The pullback is an angle, isn't one, is one, but is legit....

Thoughts?

Nick C:
Mike: I still say he has no right to pull back anything. He needs to keep his hands out of the pot, and that includes his chips placed into the betting area. The exception to that rule is; removing a smaller denomination chip to complete a bet or raise, or completing a blind bet. Removing a 500 SB with a 1000 to match the BB is the best example. Besides, why would we think that the player intended to raise because he removed one of his three 500 value chips? He would still owe 200 to complete his verbal raise to 1200...correct?

 If you're looking for an answer, to this improbable situation, he is obligated to his 1200 verbal bet...so he has to return the 500 he removed and wait for 300 change, after he releases his folded hand to the muck. Until his intent is clear, he has all options open. This includes a call, or even a raise. The action taken is not logical, and should not be allowed. Keep your hands out of the pot! Let the dealers do their job.

MikeB:
Let's take your example.... blinds are 500 /1000.  SB has posted 500. When action returns to him he reaches to pull back the 500 and put out 1000 (or more) to call the BB (or whatever the bet is at this point if it's been raised)... and after tanking a bit he throws the 500 back and mucks his cards....

Legit move?

Whether it's exactly kosher or not, players do put out new chips, and manipulate prior bet chips to get their current bet right. In the OP the guy with three 500's in front (from the prior 1200 bet), might ask the dealer "how much to me", to which dealer responds "3000 to call", to which the player pulls back a 500, tosses out two 1000's and now has an even 3000 call.... EXCEPT, (the subject of the thread), what if he decides to toss the 500 back out (or 200 to make it an even 1200) and muck?

The central question for this thread is whether it's legit for the player to decide to fold after pulling back a chip from a prior bet as if he was initially going to call or raise.  We need to get to that issue rather than just saying, strictly speaking, it's the dealer's job to manipulate all bets, in reality as per your example, players do from time to time manipulate old and new chips to make their bets.

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page