Author Topic: Cellphones Rule 3  (Read 5514 times)

Georg

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 58
    • Concord Card Casino
Cellphones Rule 3
« on: March 10, 2010, 04:02:48 PM »
TDA Rule 3 says: Players may not talk on the phone while at the poker table. House rules apply to all other forms of electronic devices.

FIDPA Rules:
11-6. Any player using a telephone, text-messaging or any other “communication device” at the table will receive a penalty. All penalties will begin at the completion of the hand.
a) Use of a Communication Device with Action Pending, if at anytime, a player with a live hand has NOT completed their action, whereas they can still bet, call, (re)raise or fold/muck their hand, and attempts to use or uses a “communication device,” will have their hand declared a “dead hand.” The player will also receive a penalty that will begin once the hand has been completed.
b) Use of a Communication Device when “all in,” if a player is “all in,” whereas they can NOT bet, call, (re)raise or fold/muck their hand and attempts to use or uses a “communication device” while waiting on an opponent(s) pending action, the player will receive a penalty; their hand will NOT be declared a “dead hand.” If the player survives their “all in” bet, the penalty will begin once the hand is completed. The first offense may warrant a “verbal warning,” repeated infractions are subject to escalating penalties.

I think it is a good rule that players are not allowed to use their cell phones at the table. But I think declaring the hand dead is a bit harsh.


What do you think?
Georg

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 639
    • The Nuts Poker League
Re: Cellphones Rule 3
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2010, 04:53:36 PM »
Definately Georg,  It seems that the TDA and other circuit rules have moved away from declaring hands dead for things like this and in the best interests of the game I agree that we should no longer be killing hands except in extreme situations.

One thing I talk about frequently and excercise the right to kill a hand to is players agreeing or suggesting to 'check down' an all-in player.  It is one of the few situations nowadays I would kill hands for, but there are many top TDs who would not even do that nowadays. What do you think?

Regards
Stuart Murray
The Nuts Poker League
South Scotland &
National Tournament Director

Georg

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 58
    • Concord Card Casino
Re: Cellphones Rule 3
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2010, 01:44:19 PM »
To be honest Stuart, I don't like killing a hand even if two players are openly colluding against an all in player. I have no problem disqualifing both of them after the hand, but the hand will play out.

As for the players using cell phones. I think that a verbal warning followed by missed hand penalties would still suffice.

I had to think hard to find a situation where I would kill a hand but here it is:
Heads up, A moves all in, B thinks about it. After a while B shows his cards to C (his neigbour not in the hand) C says "call" and B suddenly decides to call.
I would rule Bs hand dead, and give missed hand penalties to B and C.

Maybe should start a new thread about when to kill a hand?

Georg

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 639
    • The Nuts Poker League
Re: Cellphones Rule 3
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2010, 03:01:19 PM »
Yeh agreed, ill get it fired up.  I think your right about your situation too.  I like your solution to dsq the player but then it does nothing about the situation where two players (or one) have attempted to or are colluding to eliminate a player from the tournament.  Both our situations are certainly 'grey' situations which I think you will agree we hate to have to deal with.

Regards
Stuart
Stuart Murray
The Nuts Poker League
South Scotland &
National Tournament Director

bessernd

  • TDA Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: Cellphones Rule 3
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2010, 08:52:39 AM »
Definately Georg,  It seems that the TDA and other circuit rules have moved away from declaring hands dead for things like this and in the best interests of the game I agree that we should no longer be killing hands except in extreme situations.

One thing I talk about frequently and excercise the right to kill a hand to is players agreeing or suggesting to 'check down' an all-in player.  It is one of the few situations nowadays I would kill hands for, but there are many top TDs who would not even do that nowadays. What do you think?

Regards

Stuart,

I recently heard from pokerroadradio is that there is a new rule floating around.  I believe it is in a Matt Savage tournament (I think it was the LAPC or the one right before it) to where is three players are in a hand, one player of which is all in, that if one of the other players has the "absolute nuts" of the hand, will receive a penalty if they do not bet the river.  Have anyone heard of that rule?

Nick

DCJ001

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 191
Re: Cellphones Rule 3
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2010, 12:24:09 PM »
Stuart,

I recently heard from pokerroadradio is that there is a new rule floating around.  I believe it is in a Matt Savage tournament (I think it was the LAPC or the one right before it) to where is three players are in a hand, one player of which is all in, that if one of the other players has the "absolute nuts" of the hand, will receive a penalty if they do not bet the river.  Have anyone heard of that rule?

Nick

I have not heard this discussed recently. But this is similar to a rule that I have seen enforced in which, if a player has the best possible hand (heads up or in a multi-way hand), is last to act, and does not bet, if checked to, or does not raise, if there is a bet, the player would be penalized. Soft play amounts to collusion, or to put it simply - cheating.

The example that you gave of a multi-way hand, with one player all in, and another player holding "the nuts," is within the same concept.

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3176
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Cellphones Rule 3
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2010, 05:57:05 AM »
I've had experience with cell phones back in 2003 while managing the poker room for the Seneca Nation of Indians. Cell phones were initially forbidden from use. I was approached by several physicians that said they would not be able to play in our room, if they could not use their cell phones. There were other professional people also that "were on call" and really did not like the idea of not being able to use their phones. At that time, I actually got management to see things our way, and cell phones were allowed. You have to understand that at that time text messaging was not used, things are different now. I guess my feelings are; we should be able to determine if someone is using a cell phone as a devise for collusion, or if they are on a non game related conversation. I don't know exactly what the perfect solution should be, but I know that some day someone from the TDA will come up with it. A player initiating a call, is clearly and intentionally violating the rules pertaining to cell phones. No outgoing calls. No conversations at the table. Incoming calls can not be answered at the table. If a player is involved in a hand when a call comes in, they may answer in the following manner only: I will call you right back! Period. Cell phones are a part of our lifestyle. We are going to have to come up with something better than what we have now.
Nick C

Georg

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 58
    • Concord Card Casino
Re: Cellphones Rule 3
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2010, 08:05:04 AM »
Honestly, I believe it is possible, to make a phone call and play a hand of poker. The problem is, it is harder to tell people to stop using their phones, if they can not follow the game or are delaying it. In cashgames, I have seen many players beeing on the phone and still playing the hand normally. I once had a computer tech at the table who was talking someone through an installation of wireless router. It took about 30 minutes and nobody complained. He did not delay the game, he acted as soon as it was his turn, he did not fold his hand prematurely and he did not ask what the action to him was when it was his turn.
What I am trying to say is, the problem are the people who are not able to use their phone without disturbing the game. And it is just easier for the pokerroom to just say no to cell phone use.

Georg

SilverDollarTD@ec.rr.com

  • TDA Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • World Tavern Poker
Re: Cellphones Rule 3
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2010, 08:12:18 AM »
Because there can be questions of impropriety, the use of cell phones whether it's for talking or texting should not be allowed at the table. Period.

The fact that somebody is a professional or on call is quite irrelevant. If what they're doing is so important and the possibility of a person constantly using their phone is going all of the time is that great then they need to determine what's more important. The use of cell phones at a table is annoying and slows play down considerably because no matter what the phone is being used for that person is going to say it's important. So, before the tournament has even started the rule of no cell phone use must be posted and reiterated before hand.

Even for free poker I don't allow cell phone use for talking or texting at the table. If they need to use their phone they have to fold their hand and step away from that table and all other tables that are in play. Anybody caught using their cell at the table will get a 20 minute time out.

You say 20 minutes is harsh? You're right, it most certainly is. But since they know what the penalty will be for the first offense they abide by the rule and have done what I've asked them to do.

If I remember correctly, even the WSOP has a rule about using electronic devices until a certain point in the tournament and then nobody can have an electronic device of any kind, including ipods for music, etc.

Georg

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 58
    • Concord Card Casino
Re: Cellphones Rule 3
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2010, 02:56:06 PM »
I just had a change of rules in my cardroom.

My boss insists that a player using his cell phone has a dead hand in the future (not for texting, just for speaking on the phone).
Even though I would prefer a different penalty, she insists on killing the hand. She even insists, that the dealer should kill it and not even call for the floor.

So in the future I have to kill a players hand for using his cell phone.

Georg

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3176
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Cellphones Rule 3
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2010, 03:47:23 PM »
Georg
 
  Gee, I'll bet that will really "boost your tokes." Let me ask you, do you grab his cards, or do you rip the phone away from his ear? Good luck with that one.

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 639
    • The Nuts Poker League
Re: Cellphones Rule 3
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2010, 03:54:23 PM »
Horrible rule - especially considering the move away from killing hands nowadays

Stuart
Stuart Murray
The Nuts Poker League
South Scotland &
National Tournament Director