Author Topic: Undercalling  (Read 7471 times)

alex

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Undercalling
« on: November 23, 2014, 06:04:23 PM »
Hi all, this situation occurred at a 500$ NLHD tournament.
Blinds 400/800 , on the flop three players in the hand , player A bet 2300 player B went all in for 5200 ,player C throw 2300 calling player A without noticing that player B has raised the bet to 5200.
The floor person was called & he ruled that player C should call the bet of player B (5200).
Any different rulings for this situation based on The TDA rules nb 37.ty

Brian Vickers

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Re: Undercalling
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2014, 07:51:54 AM »
As it was not heads up and it was not the opening bet of the round, the rule by TDA standards should have been that the player could: A) Call the entire 5200 or B) Forfeit his 2300 and fold. 

This would adhere to all stipulations of Rule 37a. 
"Chips put in the pot in turn stay in the pot." - His 2300 will say in the pot no matter what.
"An undercall is a mandatory full call if made facing an opening bet multi-way on any betting round" - The opening bet was 2300, the raise was 5200 so he was not facing the opening bet.

Guillaume Gleize

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Re: Undercalling
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2014, 02:52:25 PM »
As when I was in Vegas during the last summit: I don't understand what mean "multiway"  ???

TY

Tristan

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Re: Undercalling
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2014, 05:20:20 PM »
Multiway is multiple different bet sizes out there.

Example:

Player A: SB
Player B: BB
Player C: Raise
Player D: Call BB

or

Player A bets 100
Player B raises to 300
Player C throws out 100

In those scenarios, it is considered somewhat reasonable to assume that the undercall was made in error as there was more than 1 bet size on the table.  That is when most TD would rule that the offending player must leave in the amount that they put in and either call the rest or fold and sacrifice that money.

An example of a non-multiway pot would be:

Player A bets 2000 on the turn
Player B throws in 500

In this circumstance, it is not as clear that it was an error and I consider this to be a call of the 2000 by Player B with no option to sacrifice the 500 and fold.  It could be an angle or they could have been signifying a call by tossing out a single chip (the elusive string call!)

« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 11:25:37 AM by Tristan »
Tristan
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Nick C

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Re: Undercalling
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2014, 04:17:07 PM »
Hello Guillaume,
 
 Multiple, by definition, could mean more than one but because our subject is poker, it's use is different. Multiway action is more than two players, or, any number of players not head to head. I know our language is difficult, especially when the word in question is not in the dictionary.

 

alex

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Re: Undercalling
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2014, 07:20:31 AM »
What about this case ,on the flop blinds 300/600 , 5 players in the hand.
Player A bet 600 , player B raise to 1500, player C & D call 1500 , player E throw 600.
In this situation can player E muck his hand & loose the 600 or he should call the 1500 as 2 players before him called player B's raise .

Tristan

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Re: Undercalling
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2014, 09:07:41 AM »
What about this case ,on the flop blinds 300/600 , 5 players in the hand.
Player A bet 600 , player B raise to 1500, player C & D call 1500 , player E throw 600.
In this situation can player E muck his hand & loose the 600 or he should call the 1500 as 2 players before him called player B's raise .

Generally I would say the option to call the rest or sacrifice the 600.
Tristan
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Nick C

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Re: Undercalling
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2014, 11:30:24 AM »
Hello Alex,

 I would agree with Tristan, as long as Player E did not announce "call," before he threw 600 into the pot.

MikeB

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Re: Undercalling
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2014, 05:32:47 PM »
Keep in mind, Rule 37-A reads: "...In all other situations, TDs discretion applies."

So within the rules as TD you have full latitude to bind an undercaller to a full call in any situation...

Nick C

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Re: Undercalling
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2014, 03:48:46 PM »
Mike,

 I'm a little confused (again) on this one. Are you saying that the rule applies when a player under-calls any wager? Head to head, or multiple players, makes no difference? Action alone, with no verbal, is the same as saying call? So...any under-call, is automatically adjusted to a call.

Brian Vickers

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Re: Undercalling
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2014, 10:15:28 PM »
Multiway is multiple different bet sizes out there.

Example:

Player A: SB
Player B: BB
Player C: Raise
Player D: Call BB

or

Player A bets 100
Player B raises to 300
Player C throws out 100

In those scenarios, it is considered somewhat reasonable to assume that the undercall was made in error as there was more than 1 bet size on the table.  That is when most TD would rule that the offending player must leave in the amount that they put in and either call the rest or fold and sacrifice that money.

An example of a non-multiway pot would be:

Player A bets 2000 on the turn
Player B throws in 500

In this circumstance, it is not as clear that it was an error and I consider this to be a call of the 2000 by Player B with no option to sacrifice the 500 and fold.  It could be an angle or they could have been signifying a call by tossing out a single chip (the elusive string call!)



Tristan, I'm sorry buddy but this is not correct; mulitway simply means more than 2 players in contention for the pot.  
« Last Edit: November 27, 2014, 10:17:21 PM by Brian Vickers »

MikeB

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Re: Undercalling
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2014, 09:56:51 AM »
Mike,

 I'm a little confused (again) on this one. Are you saying that the rule applies when a player under-calls any wager? Head to head, or multiple players, makes no difference? Action alone, with no verbal, is the same as saying call? So...any under-call, is automatically adjusted to a call.

Hi Nick: My understanding of the undercall rule is basically this:

1: If under-calling the opening bet, OR undercalling any bet heads-up: it must be brought up to a full call. There's no option to leave your undercall in the pot and fold.

2: If under-calling anything else, it's TDs discretion. One option the TD has is to allow the player to leave the undercall in and fold. But another option is to require a full call... just depends on the TDs assessment of all the facts at the time.

Nick C

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Re: Undercalling
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2014, 09:41:48 AM »
Mike,

 When you say under-calling the opening bet, are you referring to the opening bet of any betting round? If so, are you considering the BB as the opening bet pre-flop?

MikeB

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Re: Undercalling
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2014, 11:42:49 PM »
Mike,

 When you say under-calling the opening bet, are you referring to the opening bet of any betting round? If so, are you considering the BB as the opening bet pre-flop?

Yes, the opening bet of chips on any betting round (or street).

Yes, as set forth in Rule 37, for these purposes the BB is the opening bet for board games pre-flop.

Nick C

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Re: Undercalling
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2014, 08:49:51 AM »
Okay, Mike, why is opening bet used? Would the rule not apply to a raise after the opening bet? Maybe my reading comprehension isn't what it used to be. There must be a better way to explain these situations. Reading this rule over and over isn't helping me. Why not just use Accepted Action? You know how I feel about AA :-\), but wouldn't that cover it?