Author Topic: all-in misunderstanding  (Read 2344 times)

alex

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all-in misunderstanding
« on: November 23, 2014, 04:38:36 PM »
Hi all , this situation occurred at a 2/5$ cash game table. Two players heads up.player A (seat 3)bet 200$ on the flop called by player B (seat 5).
on the turn player A declare verbally ALL-IN then throw a chip of 25$ in the betting area, this is when and before the dealer sad anything , player B throw a chip of 25$ calling player A's bet. At this point player A turned his hand face up,player B was surprised from player A action as the hand didn't finish yet , this is when the dealer informed player B that there was an ALL-IN situation from player A. ( note that the dealer didn't open the river card yet).
Player B object & claim that he didn't heard player A's ALL-IN & then muck his hand.
The floor supervisor was called & the ruling was that player A can only win the 25$ from player B, as his All-IN bet was unclear .

As a start, I think  it is a dealer mistake not to declare player A's All-In & not to ask player A to push his chips inside the betting area nor throwing the ALL-IN button in front of player A , but what about players responsibility of following what's happening during the hands .
Hope I made this situation clear . Ty
« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 04:52:26 PM by alex »

Brian Vickers

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Re: all-in misunderstanding
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2014, 09:19:47 AM »
I'll start by saying that while I don't believe there are any great options, I do agree that the best course of action was for the call of $25 to stand.

First I'll say that being able to hear is not a requirement to play poker, so I never take "the dealer said" or "the player said" or "it was announced" as the end all be all.  It can be argued that the either player could have been angling here, but what we have is a failure by the betting player or the dealer to make action clear.  Sure, he said "all-in" but he presents an unclear scenario by throwing out the single $25 chip after.  I don't think we can hold Player B to the all-in in this case.  Ideally when player a throws out the $25 chip, the dealer should either use an all-in button or ask that Player A pushes all of his chips forward (the all-in button takes the place of all these chips).  When Player B throws out a single $25 chip, the dealer should make sure right away that the player understands that it is an all-in bet.  When Player A starts to expose his hand, the dealer should jump on that and say "hold on" until action is made clear.  Looks like a lot of inaction by the dealer, but unfortunately you have to handle the floor call before you can handle the feedback to the dealer (off the game). 

Like I said, you've got a bad situation, but I think your floorman got it right.  I would advise the players not to expose their hands until the dealer asks for the showdown so that we can get the pots right first.  I

Nick C

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Re: all-in misunderstanding
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2014, 01:03:18 PM »
First of all, this is a cash game. Secondly, why did Player B muck his hand? After calling $25 (because Player A only tossed $25 into the pot), I would agree that both players are only competing for the prior wagers, and the last $25 from A and B. There's no way to ever force Player B to the all-in... at least not in any cash game I've ever played in. Why he would call the $25 and then muck, has me puzzled.

 I agree with Brian when he says he agrees with the decision of the floor, but I've never used an all-in button so I'm not sure that would have helped in this situation. Are all-in buttons used in cash games, too? If Player B had not tossed his hand away, I would have considered Player A's unclear all-in, a wager of $25. If Player B had not mucked, I would have burned and turned the river and let the hand play out.

 Player B's big mistake was mucking before a decision was made by the floor. The floor might have allowed him to retract his $25...who knows? Why call, and then muck?

Brian Vickers

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Re: all-in misunderstanding
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2014, 10:22:16 PM »
Nick, it sounds like he called $25, but then when he heard it was an all-in he tried to take his $25 back and fold instead.  After that it sounds like the dealer scooped in the hand before the floor got there.

Nick, having gone from not using all-in buttons to using them I have to say they are a great tool and have helped speed up the game and helped avoid mistakes many times over.  It speeds up the game because one button placed in front of the player represents all their chips so there is no need to have a player push all his chips (or any) past the line.  It helps with mistakes because there is a big colored button out on the table that is easily seen by all players.  I recommend a disk about the size of the top of a styrofoam cup; preferably two-sided with the word call on the back.  This will make the button easy for the dealer to grab out of the well.  Many casinos have equipment for sign making, but I've found that trophy shops can often make similar ones if you can't find them online.