Author Topic: Betting misunderstanding in series again ...  (Read 8116 times)

Guillaume Gleize

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Betting misunderstanding in series again ...
« on: October 31, 2014, 06:26:32 AM »
Hello!

Flop:

A says "2000" (not very loudly) placing a 5000 chip in the middle
B pushes 5x1000 silently (misunderstood and wanting to call 5000)
C says "call" and push 5000
D folds
E says "call" and push 5000
F folds

Dealer (tired or whatever) burns and flop ...
Player F calls for the floor (me) for the incomplete betting round
B, C and E though they were calling 5000
...

Half the table didn't eared the "2000" clearly but the other half got it clearly together with the dealer ... But they didn't react because (?) tired (4:00 am) ...

I KEPT the 2000 (witness of the dealer and others) so:
1- The betting round isn't over so I asked to take back the flop
2- The 5x1000 of B are a clear multi chips RAISE
3- B and E clearly called 5000
4- A is free to flod, call 5000 or reraise 8000 or more!

Your opinion?


 

Nick C

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Re: Betting misunderstanding in series again ...
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2014, 09:57:55 AM »
Only the dealer and players that did not call heard Player A say 2000? It is obvious that none of the active opposing players heard Player A, plus, there was plenty of opportunity for Player A to recognize that something wasn't right. If I were dealing and I thought that Player A were betting 2000, I would have been announcing Player B's action (tossing 5 1000 count chips into the pot), as a raise. This is what happens when the dealer fails to pay attention to the hand in progress.

 Once the mistake was realized, I would allow Player A to either surrender his 2000, call an additional 3000 to complete the bet. I would NOT allow Player A to raise. You also mentioned that the flop was prematurely dealt. This is the bigger problem, In my opinion, it's more critical than correcting the bet amounts because removing the proper flop and re-dealing it, is rarely a popular choice.

 Players should make their intentions clear, players have an obligation to bring any mistake to the attention of the other players and the dealer, the dealer failed miserably to pay attention to the action at his table, and on and on. So, you can see how easy it is for a hand to get "messed up" when we have a major breakdown in communication by everyone. The only way to prevent these mistakes is to better train the dealers and players, alike.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 11:37:51 AM by Nick C »

MikeB

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Re: Betting misunderstanding in series again ...
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2014, 08:58:39 PM »
GG: thanks for yet another in a long series of great cases. 

Key question: Who all, if anyone clearly heard A saying "two thousand" ? This is critical.

Further, there is implicit in the rules the idea that you have to "protect your action"... we see that expressly, for example, in the action-out-of-turn, significant-action, and accepted action regulations. As B put out five 1000's A had to be thinking to himself either: "B is raising" or "B mistook my bet of 2000". If he was thinking the latter, he didn't speak up.

Ditto, as C and E push out 5000, saying call, they are looking at B's clear bet of 5000... if they were thinking they are calling A's mumbled "two thousand" they sure didn't speak up.

Now we round the table and we can either:

1: Entertain a cascade of mistakes: A really bet 2000, and B only intended to call A but he thought A bet 5000, and C and E were piling on B's mistake...

OR

2: "Let the chips do the talking". The definitive action here is B's five 1000's. That can't be mistaken for anything other than a raise to 5K. A was silent so he didn't have a problem with it, C and E both "called" it...

My preferred ruling is just to call this 5000 total to A... he can fold, call (3000 more), or raise (to a minimum of 8k total).

How do you rule in this case?

« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 09:00:00 PM by MikeB »

Tristan

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Re: Betting misunderstanding in series again ...
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2014, 09:07:58 PM »
I agree with Mike and GG.
Tristan
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Nick C

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Re: Betting misunderstanding in series again ...
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2014, 06:50:19 AM »
Tristan,

 You say you agree with Mike and Guillaume...since I am the only other person that posted, can you tell me what I said, that you don't agree with? Mike I also agree with what you wrote but, you failed to address the pre-mature flop.

Tristan

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Re: Betting misunderstanding in series again ...
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2014, 12:30:01 PM »
Nick, you said you would not allow Player A to raise.  I disagree with that.

I specifically agree with these:

4- A is free to flod, call 5000 or reraise 8000 or more!

My preferred ruling is just to call this 5000 total to A... he can fold, call (3000 more), or raise (to a minimum of 8k total).
Tristan
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Nick C

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Re: Betting misunderstanding in series again ...
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2014, 01:32:08 PM »
Tristan,

 Based on some possible circumstances, like the time lapse that Mike mentioned, I would not take the chance to allow Player A all options...just in case. Mike's quote: As B put out five 1000's A had to be thinking to himself either: "B is raising" or "B mistook my bet of 2000". If he was thinking the latter, he didn't speak up. So as you see, I also agree with Mike.

 Make your intentions clear...or suffer the consequences.

Tristan

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Re: Betting misunderstanding in series again ...
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2014, 02:17:21 PM »
Make your intentions clear...or suffer the consequences.

I agree with that, for the most part, but...

but the other half got it clearly together with the dealer

Based on what GG said, half of the table AND the dealer heard Player A verbalize 2,000.  I'd say that meets the standards of being clear.

______________________________________
On a side note...

I agree that A should have spoken up on the premature burn and flop, but I do not really think that was the main point behind GG's question and he didn't really give the full details regarding that part of it. 
Tristan
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WSOPMcGee

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Re: Betting misunderstanding in series again ...
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2014, 04:30:09 PM »

but the other half got it clearly together with the dealer

Based on what GG said, half of the table AND the dealer heard Player A verbalize 2,000.  I'd say that meets the standards of being clear.
So if the dealer heard A say 2,000..... then why'd they put a flop out? Someone's not telling the truth or just tired as GG said. Either way GG got it right.
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BillM16

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Re: Betting misunderstanding in series again ...
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2015, 08:32:50 AM »
I'm really troubled by the fact that the dealer, half of the table, and especially player A did not stop the action when the dealer (assumingly) tapped the table and burned a card ... before dealing the flop.  After all, not only is the pre-flop action incomplete, if player A hasn't declared a call on the 3000 raise, then he has change coming and didn't speak up!

I'm certainly not going to allow player A the option of raising.  In fact, I'm leaning more toward ruling that player A by his action has made a call on the 3000 raise. 
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 08:34:54 AM by BillM16 »

Nick C

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Re: Betting misunderstanding in series again ...
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2015, 01:50:12 PM »
Four Players followed A's bet (intended 2000 but pushed 5000 chip), Therefore, all players agreed to a 5000 bet. The flop stays and, (upon further review) Player A is in for 5000...that's it. For so many of you, that insist on killing skipped players hands because they didn't speak up, I find it hard to believe that you want to give (the silent) Player A all options.

 I agree with BillM16...again.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 05:59:03 PM by Nick C »

Brian Vickers

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Re: Betting misunderstanding in series again ...
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2015, 09:16:31 AM »
So if the dealer heard A say 2,000..... then why'd they put a flop out? Someone's not telling the truth or just tired as GG said. Either way GG got it right.

Bingo.