Author Topic: The term "bet" pre flop.  (Read 9558 times)

ew2484

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The term "bet" pre flop.
« on: October 05, 2014, 06:29:24 AM »
Had a situation come up in a recent tournament, blinds 100-200, third to act says "bet" as he tosses in a 500 chip. TD gets called over after dealer tries to clarify his action, player says he meant "bet the chip" when he threw it in. TD rules it a call, since betting is not an action he can currently perform, ie preflop the only actions you can take are fold, call and raise. is this the correct decision? or is the term "bet" synonymous with "raise" if used preflop whlie facing the big blind?

Nick C

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Re: The term "bet" pre flop.
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2014, 07:07:35 AM »
 Good question. I would have to agree with the decision of the floor. If the player had tossed 5 100's into the pot, it would have been more clear. There are always technical issues that can be applied when the action and verbal declaration are not in sync, but more responsibility should fall on any bettor who fails to clarify his action.

 In short, because the action was unclear, I would enforce the single oversize chip rule.

 

MikeB

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Re: The term "bet" pre flop.
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2014, 10:17:32 AM »
Super question, very worthy of discussion at the 2015 Summit IMO.

A bit of background: Roberts Rules defines "bet" as: BET: (1) The act of making  a wager before anyone else on a betting round. (2)The chips used by a player to bet, call, or raise

So, in RRoP sense, "bet" refers to either 1) as a verb, the action of the initial bettor on a given betting round ("street"), OR 2) as a noun, the stack of chips put out by a given player.

On a side note, I used to play in a tournament series where several of the characters used the term "my bet" when action came to them. Whether it was checked or bet to them, "my bet" meant "I'm going to take aggressive action", i.e. bet if checked to me, and raise if there's a bet to me. In the case of intent to raise, "bet" is not a term you hear nearly as often as raise, but it is out there...

.... so, should "my bet" or "bet" when facing a bet (including facing the blind pre-flop) mean call or raise?? For sure we can say that when unclear it is subject to TD interpretation, and it's player's responsibility if the TD rules other than what the player intended.

Other considerations: the general TDA guidance that "when a bet is unclear, it is the lesser of" (Rule 49, Non-Standard and Unclear Betting).... and the angle risk if this isn't well defined. Player B facing Player A's bet can behave aggressively, say "my bet", get a read on A, then just call?

Thanks again for the great question, I've started a "Suggestions for the 2015 Summit" thread on this here: http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=1061.0





« Last Edit: October 05, 2014, 10:23:04 AM by MikeB »

WSOPMcGee

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Re: The term "bet" pre flop.
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2014, 09:24:04 PM »
My thoughts,

While I agree that a player facing action has only 3 options (Call, Raise or Fold), the term Bet in any circumstance means you are going to make an action and Betting in all cases where the term is used means its going to be an aggressive action.

So is there a gray area because a player is facing action? I say there's not.

A player facing action can always say Call, say nothing and place an oversize chip (as described above) or say nothing and place in the correct amount. There are 3 options a player has to make a passive action.

A player wanting to make an aggressive action has 3 options as well by stating Raise, Bet or silently putting enough chips to raise.

Betting is synonymous with aggressive action
Calling is synonymous with passive action

It's really that simple.

Saying "Bet" in any case is not an unclear action IMO. It's very clear that the player wants to Bet.

A very clear understanding of this rule is used in Pot Limit in this scenario:

Blinds 100-200
Player A UTG says Bet and throws in a 1k chip.

If we were to use the ruling described above, this bet would be ruled a call of 200. But I am nearly certain, every TD on this forum worth their salt would rule this action a raise to 700.

So back to the topic and those that would try and use Rule 49 and describe this as an unclear bet - You can not in one format (No Limit) rule it a call and in another format (Pot Limit) rule it up to the "maximum value of the chip".
It's very clear this person wants to bet something and that something is going to be maximum value of the chip.
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Nick C

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Re: The term "bet" pre flop.
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2014, 07:26:29 AM »
Thomas,

 How can you determine that the player tossing a single oversize chip into the pot, while saying "bet" has intentions of raising. I'm sorry but, the player easily could have said "raise" instead of bet. The rules are very simple, and clear, whenever we discuss the single oversize chip rule. I'll risk your judgement that I'm in the category of "not worth their salt" because I disagree with you on this one, wholeheartedly.

 A bet is not a raise. Our rules are written specifically to discourage what you claim to be a clear action. When facing a bet, tossing a single oversize chip into the pot, without the simple prior declaration of a raise must always be a call. Period!

WSOPMcGee

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Re: The term "bet" pre flop.
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2014, 04:16:21 PM »
A bet is not a raise. Our rules are written specifically to discourage what you claim to be a clear action. When facing a bet, tossing a single oversize chip into the pot, without the simple prior declaration of a raise must always be a call. Period!
Get fired up much Nick? Haha :)

Quote
Thomas,

 How can you determine that the player tossing a single oversize chip into the pot, while saying "bet" has intentions of raising. I'm sorry but, the player easily could have said "raise" instead of bet. The rules are very simple, and clear, whenever we discuss the single oversize chip rule. I'll risk your judgement that I'm in the category of "not worth their salt" because I disagree with you on this one, wholeheartedly.
So what you're saying is, in any game whether PL or NL that you'd rule it a call. Fair enough. I said I was nearly certain every TD in this forum would rule the Pot Limit action a raise. I left room for error. I can say ever single supervisor to a person would rule it as "up to the maximum value of the chip".

While I agree with you that as TD's it's not our job to "force" players to raise, I refer you to Rule 41 which implicitly makes our job to force players to raise of which I've argued against many times. However in this circumstance I'm not forcing a player to raise. I'm forcing them to honor their statement. A verbal and binding statement.

By statement, I'm defining the term BET as being an aggressive action when there is no action to you, as described above. Because that's all poker is, Action. What kind of action is it?

There are 3 types: 1) Aggressive 2) Passive 3) Recessive

Aggressive Terms: Bet, Raise - Notable players such as Negreanu have even lobbied to have phrases such as "Take it up" included in this category. Giving the "Thumbs Up" which is not binding anywhere that I'm aware of (except in cases of Hearing / Speech impaired players) but is generally accepted amongst players that they know a raise is coming.

Passive Terms: Pass, Check, Call

Recessive Terms: Fold, Muck - Other phrases that are used include but not necessarily binding conditional statements, "You win" "I'll let it go" "You got it"

All you need to do is decide what kind of action is it. Aggressive, Passive or Recessive. Once you decide that, you'll have your answer on how to proceed.

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Nick C

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Re: The term "bet" pre flop.
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2014, 06:15:51 PM »
Hello Thomas,

 I don't think saying "bet" is aggressive when facing a wager. To initiate a bet is aggressive...when facing a bet, it only adds confusion. The proof would be the same player saying "I bet" when his intent was to call. So we would have a situation where the Player would correct the dealer if the dealer misunderstood his action. "I just wanted to call."  Now what? You call the floor and if Thomas McGee is on the floor, the player just raised...and if I'm on the floor, the player only called and he is instructed to make his intentions clear. I honestly don't believe some of the discussions we get into because some players can't get a few simple words right. Bet, call or raise. I know it's a lot to ask  ::)

 Hey, while were stirring up some controversy, I really like that you used PASS as a passive term. ;D

WSOPMcGee

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Re: The term "bet" pre flop.
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2014, 12:25:37 AM »
Hello Thomas,

 I don't think saying "bet" is aggressive when facing a wager.
In the above description, the player is not facing a wager. They are facing action, for lack of a better term, meaning they are opening the betting.
From original post:
Quote
blinds 100-200, third to act says "bet" as he tosses in a 500 chip.
It says third to act. It doesn't say if UTG or 2nd to act did anything other than I presume folded.
When opening the betting, as I described in the Pot Limit scenario, stating "Bet" is aggressive IMO.

Even if UTG and/or 2nd to act called blinds in between, I would define stating "Bet" to aggressive. But again, that's me.
Quote
Hey, while were stirring up some controversy, I really like that you used PASS as a passive term. ;D
Hahaha  :D
I learned it in Ireland.
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Nick C

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Re: The term "bet" pre flop.
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2014, 06:34:46 AM »
Thomas,

 You don't consider having to call the BB facing a wager? You can't check...so you can call, raise, or fold...you should never say "bet." Now that I think of it, PASS is just as acceptable (when folding) as "I fold!" ;D

MikeB

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Re: The term "bet" pre flop.
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2014, 09:52:12 AM »
Update on this interesting issue.

A very similar scenario occurred at a major tour event in Europe and was the subject of a TDA e-mail thread.

The views came down along the lines of the 2 threads on the topic in this forum. I'd say the exchange slightly favored call with strong opinions on both sides. A major reason for those favoring call is to enforce betting discipline : if you intend to raise either put out an unmistakable chip-raise or declare raise beforehand. Those favoring raise interpret "bet" to always infer aggression.

At the end of the day I suspect it will come down to a matter of TDs ruling call or raise on this situation based on the totality of the circumstances.

Also noted: Thomas points out an interesting wrinkle... that while blinds were posted, this player was the first to act voluntarily on this street.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2014, 09:57:11 AM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Re: The term "bet" pre flop.
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2014, 10:37:20 AM »
Mike,
 It's nice to know that others are in favor of enforcing betting discipline...just as easy to say raise or call as any other confusing statement. I also have questions about your saying: "that while blinds were posted, this player was the first to act voluntarily on this street."
I don't see where the UTG position, pre-flop, should be treated like the first bettor on any other street. Tossing a single oversize chip into the pot, when first to act post flop, is a wager to the value of the chip (no limit, of course). The same action when facing a bet, is not recognized as a raise without declaration...so what makes it different? You are still facing a bet when first to act (pre-flop), and it's the only street that folding is acceptable when first to act.

WSOPMcGee

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Re: The term "bet" pre flop.
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2015, 02:30:54 AM »
Mike,
 It's nice to know that others are in favor of enforcing betting discipline...just as easy to say raise or call as any other confusing statement. I also have questions about your saying: "that while blinds were posted, this player was the first to act voluntarily on this street."
I don't see where the UTG position, pre-flop, should be treated like the first bettor on any other street. Tossing a single oversize chip into the pot, when first to act post flop, is a wager to the value of the chip (no limit, of course). The same action when facing a bet, is not recognized as a raise without declaration...so what makes it different? You are still facing a bet when first to act (pre-flop), and it's the only street that folding is acceptable when first to act.
I have a good answer for you on this. Unfortunately, I don't have time to type it all out.

In short, it's different because no one voluntarily made a bet or made an aggressive action. It was forced action.

Will elaborate when I get a chance in 10 days. Off to the Bahamas to meet up with Tristan and a few thousand poker players! Wheeeeeeeeeee!!!
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Tristan

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Re: The term "bet" pre flop.
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2015, 09:46:57 PM »
See you soon bud!
Tristan
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Brian Vickers

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Re: The term "bet" pre flop.
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2015, 09:51:34 AM »
I know the pool hall kids would agree with me that "bet" can be used in a manner to say "I will agree to the bet that you have presented"

i.e. 
"$20 says you can't make that shot twice in a row"
"Bet"

Nick C

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Re: The term "bet" pre flop.
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2015, 07:17:17 AM »
Twenty bucks, huh? Here's your $20 and I'll raise you another $50..."oh no...that's a string bet"