POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS > Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General
All-In chip count
madkiwi9:
Hi there
We have a player in our school who "knows it all". One of these guys who will find something to pick on, when proven wrong will then find something else. Here is his latest
Player A - Goes All in
Various players still to talk
Dealer counts the chips to give an accurate chip count to the players left to call
The above "know it all" then objects VERY strongly - saying the dealer is NOT allowed to count the chips and give a chip count, unless specifically asked
My arguement is that an all-in is a raise and when you raise you should announce verbally or with chips them amount of your raise.
So surely in an all-in, the amount must be made known?
Looking forward to comments
Stuart Murray:
absolutely,
The dealer shall announce all action at the table including any raises and how much it is for each prospective player to 'play' this shall include at all times given valid chip counts and counting stacks. Furthermore the dealer should be verifying the amount of bets and raises to ensure they are correct. In any game I always train my dealers to count and announce which includes stacking chips in a plainly identifyable manner to the rest of the table, this includes spreading down stacks to 20,10 and 5 with the last 5 spread to give accurate information.
Regards
Stuart
chet:
Here is an interesting point to consider:
2009 WSOP Rule 77. "Players are entitled to be informed of the pot size in pot-limit games only. Dealers will not count the pot in limit and no-limit games. If requested, dealers may spread the pot so that it can be counted by a player." This is the ONLY place I have seen such a rule. I did not find it in either Robert's Rules of Poker or the TDA rules.
We can discuss whether chips, in the situation at hand, are "in the pot" or not. I believe they are. That said, I also firmly believe that a player has an right to know how much 'action' he/she is facing. Hence, the words "If requested" in this rule, in my opinion.
I have been involved in many events where the dealer routinely stacks and counts the chips of an all-in bet. I am of the opinion that dealers should not do so unless requested. Why? Because it most cases it wastes time and delays the game, especially in Tournaments. Players will wait until the dealer completes the stack and count, even if the amount of the bet is immaterial, hence delaying the action. My experience is that most players do not need to know the exact amount, that if the stack(s) are 'clean', they can figure out the size themselves. Dealers for the most part have other tasks they can be doing such as coloring up the pot, etc., as opposed to counting bet amounts unnecessarily.
I would be interested in hearing from the TDA BOD on this one.
Georg:
In my opinion, the players should be informed of the amount of the bet (all in is a bet).
I also agreed with chet, that it does take time and delays the game. When I was a dealer I decided on my own, when to count and when to wait for the player asking for a count. If I can do it in a few seconds I will count it, sometimes I gave an estimate like between 40k and 45k and then added "If you want to know the exact amount, I will count it for you"
The count should not be mandatory without request, I believe a good dealer can decide when it does not delay the game and when it does.
Georg
DCJ001:
--- Quote from: chet on March 06, 2010, 08:46:22 PM ---Here is an interesting point to consider:
2009 WSOP Rule 77. "Players are entitled to be informed of the pot size in pot-limit games only. Dealers will not count the pot in limit and no-limit games. If requested, dealers may spread the pot so that it can be counted by a player." This is the ONLY place I have seen such a rule. I did not find it in either Robert's Rules of Poker or the TDA rules.
We can discuss whether chips, in the situation at hand, are "in the pot" or not. I believe they are. That said, I also firmly believe that a player has an right to know how much 'action' he/she is facing. Hence, the words "If requested" in this rule, in my opinion.
I have been involved in many events where the dealer routinely stacks and counts the chips of an all-in bet. I am of the opinion that dealers should not do so unless requested. Why? Because it most cases it wastes time and delays the game, especially in Tournaments. Players will wait until the dealer completes the stack and count, even if the amount of the bet is immaterial, hence delaying the action. My experience is that most players do not need to know the exact amount, that if the stack(s) are 'clean', they can figure out the size themselves. Dealers for the most part have other tasks they can be doing such as coloring up the pot, etc., as opposed to counting bet amounts unnecessarily.
I would be interested in hearing from the TDA BOD on this one.
--- End quote ---
WSOP rule #77 is also TDA rule # 35.
Pot Size
Players are entitled to be informed of the pot size in pot-limit games only. Dealers will not count the pot in limit and no-limit games.
But this rule has nothing to do with the original poster's question regarding counting a player's bet.
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