Author Topic: OOT action when heads up at start of betting round  (Read 6493 times)

WSOPMcGee

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Re: OOT action when heads up at start of betting round
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2015, 12:37:15 AM »
Thomas: Once long ago I suggested using names for players when describing these scenarios. I'm getting dizzy with "Player #1 and Player #6, and then we use Player A, and Player D." Or "The Button raised the UTG after he was called by the Cutoff" ::)

 I'll read your post again, (for the tenth time), and see if I can sort it out. :-\
Ok... I'll repost with names :)
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WSOPMcGee

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Re: OOT action when heads up at start of betting round
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2015, 12:44:20 AM »
Ok I'll see if I can be more detailed.

Game is 7 card Stud. Limits are 100-200 with a 50 bring-in.

Eli is the Bring-in and mistakes 2 black chips for 2 green chips. Eli puts in 200.

Dealer says complete.

Four players, Joe, Bob, Bill, John all fold around to Frank.

Frank sees 2 black chips as the bet. Frank puts in 200 to call.

Dealer says Raise.

Jimmy and Jack fold.

Eli ask the dealer, "He raised?" Dealer says "Yes". Eli says then I raise and he put in 300.
 
Frank says "Wait, I didn't raise. I just called. Eli put out 200 and I put out 200, I call."

Floor is called.

There are 3 possible rulings here and none of them are wrong. But each ruling is definitely better than another ruling.

You're the floor Nick. Go.
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Nick C

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Re: OOT action when heads up at start of betting round
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2015, 07:58:40 PM »
Thomas:

 I'd ask to be taken off the floor, because I'd have no idea of what they're playing. In a 100/200 limit stud game with a 50 bring in, if I remember correctly, the biggest bet the bring-in can make is 100...not 200. A structured stud game does not allow the "high" end of the structure until fifth-street unless there is an open pair on forth street. This is where I'm lost, and I can't imagine any dealer, that I've ever known, allowing two black chips to be wagered...and then saying complete! ::) I'd probably go over to the table and say what the hell's going on?

In fact, unless there is someone else out there that knows what Thomas is trying to tell me, I'd hate to see you (Thomas) try to explain it again. Damn, that used to be my favorite game and I don't have a clue. ???

Nick C

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Re: OOT action when heads up at start of betting round
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2015, 07:42:17 AM »
Hello, Thomas...are you out there? Anyone? Mike B...Ken...Brian...Chet?

Brian Vickers

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Re: OOT action when heads up at start of betting round
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2015, 12:48:44 PM »
Nick, I think that is what was so messed up, Eli put out 200, dealer said complete but it should have only been 100.  At this point the dealer should have slid the extra 100 chip back to the player but it appears he did not. 

Frank sees 200, thinks 200 is the bet, then puts out 200 intending to call. 

Since Eli's bet really should have only been 100, not 200, Frank's 200 is being viewed as a raise in this example.

My floor call?  Bet is 200 and let's go to 4th street.  Reason?  Eli may not have been able to make it 200 but both Eli and Frank have shown that they are each amenable to playing for 200 so the least damaging thing I can do is to have them both continue to the next street for 200.  At one point both Frank and Eli had 200 in chips sitting in front of them.  By allowing Eli the chance to make it 300 we may have been unwitting accomplices to Eli's original intended angle shot for all we know.

The other two floor calls that could be done:
A) Eli's original bet is ruled 100 and since Frank says he didn't want to raise, we make Frank put in 100 instead of 200 and go to 4h street.  I'd be ok with this one.
B) Chips is chips, and bets is bets.  Eli completed to 100, Frank raised to 200, now Eli makes it 300 and action is reopened.  I don't like this one.

Nick C

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Re: OOT action when heads up at start of betting round
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2015, 01:19:21 PM »
Brian,

 If that's what happened, I'd yank that dealer out of the box so fast, it would look like a disappearing act from Siegfried & Roy.

 I'd prefer Eli's original bet is 100... (Your letter A)

 Thanks for sorting this one out...holy crap, never heard such a messed-up stud hand...ever! ::)

WSOPMcGee

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Re: OOT action when heads up at start of betting round
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2015, 10:52:54 PM »
What Brian said
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Nick C

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Re: OOT action when heads up at start of betting round
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2015, 06:23:20 AM »
Thomas: That's it? That's your answer? Tell me, is that dealer still employed?

WSOPMcGee

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Re: OOT action when heads up at start of betting round
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2015, 02:40:28 PM »
Thomas: That's it? That's your answer? Tell me, is that dealer still employed?
Of course they are.

Maybe there's some minor details I left out because I didn't think they were important enough.

The dealer said "complete" This alerts everyone on the table that bet is completed to 100. The dealer shouldn't need to do more than that.

He did tell Eli to take one of the extra chips off of his bet. However, by the time it got around to Frank (who was too busy on his iPad playing a video game to notice or pay attention to the action) he looked and saw 2 black chips and also put out 2 black chips.

That's why the dealer says "Raise". Because in his mind, he's already alerted the table that it's 100 to call, he's already asked Eli to take a chip back off his bet and now a player has put in 2 chips which constitute a raise. Even after the dealer says "Raise" and two additional players fold behind, Frank never stopped the action and corrected the dealer. He went back to playing his video game.

Now the action is back on Eli.

Eli sees a 2 chip bet and asks the dealer if Frank raised. The dealer says "Yes", because Frank never corrected him. Now Eli raises and Frank objects. Hopefully that adds additional insight.
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BillM16

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Re: OOT action when heads up at start of betting round
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2015, 06:26:35 AM »
Please see:
Binding OOT action - proposed rewrite of #38A http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=1155.0