Author Topic: OOT action when heads up at start of betting round  (Read 6501 times)

Brian Vickers

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OOT action when heads up at start of betting round
« on: August 22, 2014, 12:44:41 AM »
Proposal:
When a betting round begins heads-up, any action OOT is binding.

Reasons:
Currently, if A and B are the only two players in the pot on the river, Action is on A, and B says "bet 500," A must arbitrarily "check" for B's bet to stand.  How many of you have seen this scenario though: A is first to act and hasn't done anything, B bets 500, A throws out the 500 chip thinking he is now calling, B then argues that A's 500 bet changes the action and B should be able to take his bet back.  The way the current rule reads, if A doesn't "check" and then "call" then B is correct, this is a bet of 500 that would change action.  My feeling is that this should not be allowed to happen.  My recommendation is listed above, and with my recomendation in place, this ruling on this scenario would be a bet by B and a call by A.

MikeB

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Re: OOT action when heads up at start of betting round
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2014, 07:20:11 AM »
Brian:

Very worthy proposal for consideration at the 2015 Summit. A player at this year's Bay 101 WPT suggested that same rule to Matt and me.

Nick C

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Re: OOT action when heads up at start of betting round
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2014, 06:15:56 AM »
Hello Mike and Brian,

 I've always felt head to head should be governed by a separate rule set. Dealers must be considered as one of the persons to even consider substantial action. Also, I am still very confused about action changing, when the OOT player's action, should never even be considered. When the OOT is the offending player, why should he be allowed any advantage?

 I agree, this needs to be addressed, and changed.

MikeB

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Re: OOT action when heads up at start of betting round
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2015, 11:15:49 PM »

WSOPMcGee

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Re: OOT action when heads up at start of betting round
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2015, 12:12:20 AM »
This is already covered by Accepted Action. A bet and call. Action is accepted. Next hand.
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Nick C

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Re: OOT action when heads up at start of betting round
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2015, 01:27:00 AM »
Thomas: How can you consider an out of turn action covered by Accepted Action?

WSOPMcGee

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Re: OOT action when heads up at start of betting round
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2015, 03:05:55 AM »
Thomas: How can you consider an out of turn action covered by Accepted Action?

Because a bet was made and called. The action is accepted. The same as in Pot Limit cash games: An over-bet was made and was called. Action is accepted.

I liken it to this scenario that happened in the 10k Stud 8 tournament:

Player A (Seat 3) Late Registrant just arrives to the table and is the bring-in first hand. Betting is 100-200 with a 50 bring-in. Player A puts in 200. Player B puts in 200. The Dealer says Raise, Player A puts in 100 more (300), Dealer says Raise, Player B objects, floor is called. Player B says that Player A bet 200, I called 200.

The floor in this case allowed the raises.

However, it was decided after more discussion amongst ourselves that the better ruling would be Accepted Action. Bet and Called.

So back to our NLH scenario here we have Non-Action by Player A, then a Bet of 500 by Player B and then Player A throws in a 500 chip to call. Under Accepted Action that's a Bet and Call. Action is accepted. Next hand.

This eliminates any further ambiguities.

As Dave Lamb would say, you always rule in favor of the lessor. Meaning less damage to any player. So in this case, that means enforcing the 500 bet and call. Not allowing, the bet to be retracted and giving Player A all his options back or worse forcing Player A to leave the 500 in and giving Player B all his options because "Action Changed". Some rules super-cede other rules and in this case Accepted Action is the better ruling.
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Nick C

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Re: OOT action when heads up at start of betting round
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2015, 07:20:57 AM »
Thomas: How does the bring-in bet 200 when the limit is 100-200?

Brian Vickers

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Re: OOT action when heads up at start of betting round
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2015, 03:16:26 PM »
Thomas, I don't believe most interpret accepted action in a way to cover heads up OOT action.  I've heard many times in many rooms from floors and dealers that the original action must check for the bet to stand just like in a multi-way pot.  What I was proposing was a universal acceptance that if you act out of turn heads up the other player can simply react to the bet with the need to arbitrarily check first and of course that you are still subjct to penalty if you are repeatedly acting OOT.

WSOPMcGee

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Re: OOT action when heads up at start of betting round
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2015, 11:04:33 PM »
Thomas: How does the bring-in bet 200 when the limit is 100-200?
Not sure what you mean "How" Nick? He put out 200 (black 100 chips) and was called.
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Nick C

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Re: OOT action when heads up at start of betting round
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2015, 06:44:19 AM »
Thomas, I'm sure I'm missing something because I'm having a tough time following your example. You say the bring-in is 50 and the player brings it in for 200? How can the mext player raise 100 more? Like I said, I'm not understanding your scenario at all...sorry.

WSOPMcGee

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Re: OOT action when heads up at start of betting round
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2015, 12:54:33 PM »
Thomas, I'm sure I'm missing something because I'm having a tough time following your example. You say the bring-in is 50 and the player brings it in for 200? How can the mext player raise 100 more? Like I said, I'm not understanding your scenario at all...sorry.

Ok I'll see if I can be more detailed.

Game is 7 card Stud. Limits are 100-200 with a 50 bring-in.

Player in Seat 2 is the Bring-in and mistakes 2 black chips for 2 green chips. He puts in 200.
Dealer says complete. *****Side note - This is another good dealer and he could have saved this headache by correcting the bet immediately. He did verbalize it to the table while continuing the action. But these "PROs" are so distracted by miscellaneous electronic devices that they don't pay attention to what dealers say anymore and just visually observe the action and act on impulse in the early stages of a tournament.*****

Fold around to player in Seat 7.
Player sees 2 blacks chips as the bet. He puts in 200 to call.
Dealer says Raise. Seat 1 folds.
Player in Seat 2 says to the dealer, "He raised?" Dealer says "Yes". Seat 2 says then I raise and put in 300.
Player in Seat 7 says "Wait, I didn't raise. I just called. He put out 200 and I put out 200, I call."

Floor is called.

Keep in mind this in not a "scenario" this is a real hand in the 10k Stud event.

There are 3 possible rulings here and none of them are wrong. But each ruling is definitely better than another ruling.

You're the floor Nick. Go.

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Nick C

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Re: OOT action when heads up at start of betting round
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2015, 03:48:51 PM »
Sorry Thomas, I just can't even begin to wrap my brain around this scenario. I'll have to come back to this one when I can think straight.

I'm back. First of all: with the bring-in 50 the most he could have bet was 100, not 200. Therefore the next player was not allowed to call 200. Then the next player raises to 300? How in the hell did any of this happen?

 I realize that substantial action has occurred but if I were called to make a decision, I would have backed up to the bring-in, correct his bet by allowing him to bring it in for 100...then I would return 100 to the player who thought he was calling the bring-in...and then I would have made the raiser take back 100 and make his raise the only legal size it could be...200. That's my call and I'm sticking to it and I'm going to have a nice conversation with your "good dealer." :-\

Hey, that's a little high on the bring-in for 100/200...is it not?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 04:10:39 PM by Nick C »

WSOPMcGee

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Re: OOT action when heads up at start of betting round
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2015, 06:15:47 PM »
I'm back. First of all: with the bring-in 50 the most he could have bet was 100, not 200.
True. But that's not what happened.
Quote
Therefore the next player was not allowed to call 200.
Again true, but that's not what happened.
Quote
Then the next player raises to 300? How in the hell did any of this happen?
This did not happen. Read it again. The Player in Seat 2 who brought it in for $200 raised to $300.

Quote
I realize that substantial action has occurred
Correct.
Quote
but if I were called to make a decision, I would have backed up to the bring-in
correct his bet by allowing him to bring it in for 100...then I would return 100 to the player who thought he was calling the bring-in...and then I would have made the raiser take back 100 and make his raise the only legal size it could be...200. That's my call and I'm sticking to it and I'm going to have a nice conversation with your "good dealer." :-\
[/quote]
Substantial action trumps everything. It is too late to correct the bets. There were 4 folds in between and a call, in addition to another fold behind the caller.
Quote
Hey, that's a little high on the bring-in for 100/200...is it not?
The limit was 25 ante, 50 bring-in, 100/200 limit. With a 30,000 starting stack, no that's not too high.
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Nick C

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Re: OOT action when heads up at start of betting round
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2015, 01:35:03 AM »
Thomas: Once long ago I suggested using names for players when describing these scenarios. I'm getting dizzy with "Player #1 and Player #6, and then we use Player A, and Player D." Or "The Button raised the UTG after he was called by the Cutoff" ::)

 I'll read your post again, (for the tenth time), and see if I can sort it out. :-\