Author Topic: Raise is less than min, next player calls, mistake is discovered, how to handle?  (Read 4253 times)

alex

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Hi all , this incident occurred  at a NLH tournement  where the minimum raise allowed is the double of the largest previous bet .
Blinds 800 / 1600, preflop player A raise to 2600 ,the dealer announced 2600 to call ,player B  call the bet ,this is when the dealer brought both players attention that the minimum raise should be 3200 instead  2600.
player A adjust his raise  to 3200  but player B claims that  in this situation, as the dealer anounced a wrong bet amount ,he has the right to reconsider his action  by taking back his 2600 & muck his hand .
Can player B take back his chips. Ty
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 08:30:34 PM by MikeB »

MikeB

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Hi Alex:

There was a thread on a somewhat similar situation not too long ago, perhaps someone can link to it.

At this time there is not a specific TDA rule that exactly addresses the situation, although parts of several rules may apply:
Rule 1 certainly applies, making a decision balancing fairness and the best interest of the game
Rule 3: player's responsibility to follow the action
Rule 37: Chips put in the pot in turn stay in the pot

Ultimately these are Rule 1 decisions. IMO there is great interest in the game in keeping the bets right. Further, the discrepancy is relatively small; traditional RRoP suggests that whenever a misunderstanding is within 80% of what the real bet should be, players might be held to the real bet. Not a hard and fast threshold, just a suggestion that RRoP makes. 80% of 3200 is 2560, very close to 2600 using that threshold.

Fortunately the amount here is small and I personally would hold both A and B to a total bet of 3200. They do have some responsibility to follow the action, and it's in the best interest of the game to keep bet amounts right. It's worth noting that in most of these type cases the underbets are relatively small, +/- one BB or so, which is a small price to enforce betting discipline.

Thanks for the interesting case. These specific situations will be discussed at Summit VII no doubt.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 05:55:47 PM by MikeB »

K-Lo

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I'm not a big fan of the "forced double-the-bet raise", but I digress...

Personally, if Player B's only excuse is that he was misled by the dealer, in a situation where everyone apparently should know the raising rule, I'm also holding Player B to a full call here.  Accepted action (sort of).

Nick C

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I agree there are a number of different rules that could apply. Substantial action is one that was not mentioned. As long as the next player did not react, I would probably allow the calling player to retract his bet. I guess we're all safe under rule #1.

MikeB

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Here's the similar thread: http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=995.msg8770#msg8770 Not identical, but similar.

Tristan

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I would have A put out the correct amount.  I would also hold B to a call...it was a min raise and they knew they were calling a raise.
Tristan
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Nick C

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Tristan,

 I can't argue with your answer. I just don't like the idea of the dealer being eliminated from responsibility. I'm always preaching for more dealer participation, and control of the game...so when the dealer announces incorrect amounts I feel that players should have some protection. That has always been my argument against Accepted Action.

 By TDA rules, what you suggest is by the book.

Tristan

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I get what you are saying Nick, and if I could make a decision here that would only negatively affect the dealer here, I sure would!!  ;D  Unfortunately, we cannot do that.  Remember that the dealer also failed to correct Player A.  Both players made the same error and the dealer failed to correct either of them.

So the decision is to cost each player 600 to rectify which slightly penalizes both players, but equally...or to allow Player B an option and to force Player A to put out 600.  This way assigns the bigger penalty to Player A. 

I personally feel like both players made the same mistake, so I like the decision that affects them equally.
Tristan
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