Author Topic: Making change for blinds AND putting out chips on top of prior bet not pulled in  (Read 6577 times)

Steven

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1) What are your dealers instructed to do about making change for the blinds before the cards are dealt and betting action begins? Do they try to make the amounts precise or do they let it slide until that player acts on his hand?

2) if change is not always made and blinds are 600/1200 and the bb has three 500 chips in front, how do you rule when the betting round is limped to the big blind, and then the big blind announces raise and tosses out 2000 more? Is the total bet now 3200 or is it 3500? I suspect making intentions clear would be part of the ruling decision.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 11:05:21 AM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Re: Making change for the blinds
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2014, 08:20:28 AM »
Steven,

 Your question #1 would depend on a few factors. I would encourage dealers to make the correct change when possible, but there are times when it would be too time consuming. Depending on the available chips, (if any) that dealers may have in their table bank. Tournaments are different from cash games in that respect.

 Your question #2 if change is not always made and blinds are 600/1200 and the bb has three 500 chips in front, how do you rule when the betting round is limped to the big blind, and then the big blind announces raise and tosses out 2000 more? Is the total bet now 3200 or is it 3500? I suspect making intentions clear would be part of the ruling decision.
A player in that position , that announces raise and fails to remove 300 from his earlier bet, would indicate a raise to 3500. The best solution is what you wrote: make your intentions clear. That is the best, and only way to prevent a ruling that might not be what you intended.
 

MikeB

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2) if change is not always made and blinds are 600/1200 and the bb has three 500 chips in front, how do you rule when the betting round is limped to the big blind, and then the big blind announces raise and tosses out 2000 more? Is the total bet now 3200 or is it 3500? I suspect making intentions clear would be part of the ruling decision.


The above is a scenario where the player makes a bet on top of chips not yet pulled in. In your example there is change due from the prior bet. In other examples we could make the prior-bet chips may not have change coming, or they may not be enough to cover calling an intervening raise.

So now the player drops an additional chip or chip(s) on top of the prior-bet chips. In your example he didn't pull any of the prior chips back. In other examples we could make, he might pull some back.

In your example he declares raise but not an amount. In other examples we could make he might not declare anything, just put out a chip or chips.

In your example he doesn't toss the lot of chips forward, he just drops the new 2000 on top of the prior bet chips. In other examples we could make, he bundles all the chips together and tosses the lot forward.

ALL of the above share in common that the player has "make a bet on top of chips not yet pulled in". This general issue is the subject of new TDA Rule 44: 44: Previous Bet Chips Not Pulled In. If a player faces a raise and has chips in front of him not yet pulled in from a prior bet, those chips (and any change due) may affect whether his betting response to the raise is a call or re-raise. Because several possibilities exist, players are encouraged to verbally declare their bet before putting out new chips on top of chips from a prior bet not yet pulled in.

The 2013 TDA Summit had an open discussion of this general subject. There were at least 6 or 7 possible scenarios presented in the Summit Powerpoint: Player silently tosses out an overchip on top of prior bet, player silently pulls a part of prior bet back then tosses an overchip, player bundles chips together and tosses forward, player pulls a chip back then puts out two or more new chips silently.... and on and on...

What we found was that polling the over 150 attendees, there was fairly strong agreement as to how to rule in some of these situations, but a wide disparity in others...  The TDA could have written up elaborate instructions for each of these 7 or 8 permutations. But even then would TDs, and especially dealers, keep all the possibilities in their mind? At the end of the day, the reality is that for the time being these will be ruled as the floorstaff sees fit at the time IF the player doesn't make his actions unmistakably clear by verbally declaring their total bet amount first.

In your example, I think almost universally this would be considered a bet of all chips (i.e. 3500 total). But in other possible cases the ruling would not be so consistent. Hence Rule 44: Player is advised to pre-verbalize his/her bet amount, otherwise as you say, it's players responsibility to make their intentions clear and if they don't this bet may not be interpreted as they intended, and it's their responsibility, not the floorstaff.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 11:04:45 AM by MikeB »

K-Lo

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Agreed with both Nick and Mike.

-k

Guillaume Gleize

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Hello,

Sometimes I get lost with my poor english. Tell me if our rules fit the TDA main line:

1) A player with 3x500 in front of him as a 1200 big blind says nothing and drop 2x1000 over is ruled a raise for a total of 3500!

2) A player with 3x500 in front of him as a 1200 big blind says nothing and start pulling his 3X500 whatever his intention is warned not to do it, obliged to push it back and asked to declare his intention clearly or to only add chips.

3) A player with 3x500 in front of him as a 1200 big blind says nothing and drop 3x1000 then start pulling his 3X500 is warned not to do it, obliged to push it back and ruled for a 4500 total raise!

GG

MikeB

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G: That's just it, there isn't really any TDA main line on this, either written or unwritten... There's just too many possibilities hence new TDA Rule 44.  

How I would rule in your examples:

Hello,  Tell me if our rules fit the TDA main line:

1) A player with 3x500 in front of him as a 1200 big blind says nothing and drop 2x1000 over is ruled a raise for a total of 3500!
Yes, and I think most would.


2) A player with 3x500 in front of him as a 1200 big blind says nothing and start pulling his 3X500 whatever his intention is warned not to do it, obliged to push it back and asked to declare his intention clearly or to only add chips.
This is okay. On the other hand, people do switch their standing blind bet around for another larger bet sometimes... I would prefer they don't, but it happens and is hard to control.

But how to rule... in these situations, where one or more chips of a prior bet are pulled back, I'm going to rule ALL chips that ultimately are pushed out to be a total bet. It's just my interpretation that the player is making a deliberate statement about the chips he leaves in front of him... he could have pulled other chips back but ultimately he decided to leave this specific stack of old and new chips out in front so I consider that a total bet (unless of course he verbalized his total bet before even starting the action). From memory on the voting at the Summit, there was a wide split on this one, half the hands voting one way, the other half voting the other.

Definitely agree it's better to declare your bet prior to putting out the chips.


3) A player with 3x500 in front of him as a 1200 big blind says nothing and drop 3x1000 then start pulling his 3X500 is warned not to do it, obliged to push it back and ruled for a 4500 total raise!


Definitely don't allow this. Once he drops the 3x1000 onto the felt that's his bet. If he then pulls something back that's an illegal string action unless he declares the bet before the chips hit the table surface. 4500 total bet here and you'll have 100% agreement on that one.

4-10) We could add at least 5 to 7 more examples to the list above. That's why there's TDA Rule 44. It's just hard to standardize right now how these are handled. The bottom line is they are going to be ruled as the house sees fit unless the player verbalizes his bet first. (TDA Rule 44). Perhaps the Association can make more headway on some specific situations at the next Summit.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 08:38:20 AM by MikeB »