Author Topic: "Inadvertent" raise  (Read 1996 times)

Steven

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 66
"Inadvertent" raise
« on: March 07, 2014, 03:27:28 PM »
Quite often, especially early in a tournament, players will inadvertently toss in more than the current bet amount and then immediately pull the extra amount back.

For example, blinds are 50/100 , Player A bets 100 and Player B presumably means to call the 100 but a second 100 chip "trickles" along with the first. Player B then pulls the second chip back. By the book, the second chip would be a raise. Usually no one raises an objection.

I wonder though what should really be done here! Personally, I think it is proper for a player or dealer to speak up and note the raise. Rule 2 now talks about Player Responsibilities and one of those listed is to "speak up if they see a mistake being made"

Note that Rule 2 does not have the "in the interest of fairness" caveat that Rule 1 Floor Decisions provides.

Or maybe a floor decision might use the fairness clause to overrule the raise.

The above example is a bit benign, but could have a much bigger impact if the same inadvertent raise was made and a previous caller had limped with the intention of check-raising. Now the raise would facilitate the check raise!

Thanks for your thoughts!



« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 03:57:53 PM by Steven »

K-Lo

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 869
  • @AskTheTD on Twitter
    • Ask the Tournament Director
Re: "Inadvertent" raise
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2014, 04:26:44 AM »
Personally, if it was clear that the other chip accidentally trickled in, and there was no hesitation to pull it back, and there is no evidence of any attempted angle, I have no problem with that and would not take a hard line.

I believe that there is a place for taking a hard, technical line when it comes to enforcing the rules, and there is a place where a common sense ruling is called for.  I think this situation would clearly call for the latter approach. 

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3081
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: "Inadvertent" raise
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2014, 08:17:39 AM »
I agree.

Steven

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 66
Re: "Inadvertent" raise
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2014, 03:33:46 PM »
Thanks Ken and Nick!

What if the extra chip was a BIG chip in a dirty stack" or one BIG chip stuck to a small one?

What if the player next to act immediately raises the dirty stack before the player has a chance to "retrieve" the BIG chip?

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3081
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: "Inadvertent" raise
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2014, 07:00:35 PM »
Steven,

 These situations should be very rare, but I guess it's best to prepare yourself just in case. In my opinion, once the next player raises the bet, it's too late to retract anything. The nice feature about substantial action is the ability to correct some obvious mistakes before the action gets out of hand. A good dealer, for example, could recognize the mistake and correct it before the next player acts. However, your example would make it awful tough for any tournament director to allow the unintended amount to be changed or retracted.

Steven

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 66
Re: "Inadvertent" raise
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2014, 08:06:53 PM »
Thanks, Nick!

 I agree these scenarios may be rare, and as you note, the preparation and prior conversation can be instructive and sometimes lead to further discussion!

My first thought about the dirty stack scenario was that the next immediate raiser may have noticed it and decided to take advantage and raise with a good hand - however, it could work against him if he didn't notice and announced raise and then was required to make a bigger raise than anticipated!

I guess it does come down to player responsibility to verbalize and/or know the exact situation / chip count before acting!

WSOPMcGee

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 325
    • The R.O.P.E.
Re: "Inadvertent" raise
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2014, 08:19:18 PM »
Steven,

Since you seem to like asking the community these weird what if questions.... I thought this would be a good thread for you to read.

Food for thought for Steven

Hope you like it!
@wsopmcgee on Twitter