Author Topic: Showing a live hand to a player not in this hand anymore  (Read 4272 times)

Georg

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Showing a live hand to a player not in this hand anymore
« on: November 21, 2009, 12:35:31 AM »
What if a player that is still in the hand shows his cards to a player not in the hand anymore?
I do not think that it influences the game but it could lead to some trouble if the player that saw the cards then shows any reaction. But what do I tell the players other than that I don't want them to show their cards to anyone?

Georg

chet

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Re: Showing a live hand to a player not in this hand anymore
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2009, 10:28:43 AM »
Georg:  The example is actually a violation of rule #41 - No Disclosure.  That rule says, "Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times.  Therefore, players, whether in the hand or not (emphasis added), may not:
1.  Disclose contents of live or folded hands,
2.  Advise or criticize play at any time,
3.  Read a hand that hasn't been tabled.
The one-player-to-a-hand rule will be enforced.

I understand this is difficult, but it is a matter of educating your players (which may take some time, as bad habits are hard to break) and the only way to do that, in my opinion, is to make sure they know the rule, the reason for the rule and that it will be enforced.  As said in another question, the decision of whether to apply a warning or a penalty (or for that matter, what level of penalty) is up to you as the TD.

Hope this helps.

Georg

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Re: Showing a live hand to a player not in this hand anymore
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2009, 11:58:49 AM »
Good point chet! I thought about rule #41 but I wasn't sure.
The problem is, that it is accepted at our card room that you can show your hand to a player not in the hand anymore. Now I have to convince my boss to change the rules according to TDA rules which is more of a problem than I thought  ::)

Georg

chet

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Re: Showing a live hand to a player not in this hand anymore
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2009, 06:04:38 PM »
Georg:  There are exceptions to almost every TDA rule in one card room or another. 
For example, there are many card rooms that follow the TDA "Dead Button" rule (#24), however, there are any number of card rooms that do not use the "Dead Button" rule.  TDA rule #22 requires players to be at their seat by the time all players have received their complete initial hand in order for that hand to be 'live'.  I know of a room where their house rule requires you to be at your seat by the time the first card is dealt to the small blind. 

It would be fantastic if each and every card room used the same set of rules, but that is going to take more time.

The question here is two fold:

1.  If your card room is trying to follow the rules found in most Las Vegas card rooms then it may be worth trying to change the interpretation.  If not, make sure your players know that such action is not generally accepted, and that if they are in Las Vegas, California, Atlantic City, etc., etc., they may be penalized for showing cards.

2.  If you decide to try to convince your boss to change the rule in your room, remember he has a balancing act and part of that is to follow generally accepted rules while at the same time keeping the players happy so they keep coming back.  If you lose your players, it doesn't matter how you interpret the rules.

Hope this helps!

chet

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Re: Showing a live hand to a player not in this hand anymore
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2009, 06:10:30 PM »
Georg:  One more point that you might want to use in your discussions with your boss.  The lone player who is shown the cards now has an advantage over each and every other player in the event who does not get to see how that player plays those cards. 

In a live game, it doesn't matter all that much, but there is still an advantage to knowing how that person plays. 

In a tournament, it does matter since the play and action of every individual hand, effects the tournament overall. 

pokerfish

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Re: Showing a live hand to a player not in this hand anymore
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2009, 09:41:47 PM »
It also is important to note that when a player shows his cards to a neighbor, anyone who was dealt in may ask to see the hand. Usually one person doing that will put an end to the showing of cards. If someone across the table is getting more info than I am, I will ask every time to see the hand to stop it from occurring or to allow myself the same competitive edge and additional information.
Jan Fisher
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LeScribe

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Re: Showing a live hand to a player not in this hand anymore
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2009, 05:59:38 AM »
"Show one, show all"

Bruno
Every player wins at the end of any hand : some win money, other win experience...

Georg

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Re: Showing a live hand to a player not in this hand anymore
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2009, 03:01:51 PM »
It also is important to note that when a player shows his cards to a neighbor, anyone who was dealt in may ask to see the hand. Usually one person doing that will put an end to the showing of cards. If someone across the table is getting more info than I am, I will ask every time to see the hand to stop it from occurring or to allow myself the same competitive edge and additional information.
Jan Fisher
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Yes, I also believe that if players start asking to see those hands it would put an end to this. But they are NOT asking!

What do you think of that: If the dealer sees that a hand is shown to another player he puts those cards away and shows them at the end of the hand? If they show cards to each other without somebody noticing, how can anybody ask to see them?

Georg