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91
Live Cash Game Rules Questions / Re: Cash game PLO - Difficult ruling
« Last post by Nick C on May 26, 2018, 05:20:17 AM »
Dave, I understand your feelings about following a strict adherence to our poker rules. However, I believe the original rule makers, (sort of like the framers of our Constitution) set a high standard for the rule of law. Rule #1 gives the floor personnel or management the tools to make a sound decision in the event of a violation of a written rule. There are however important variables that could allow us to make different rulings on what appear to be two identical situations. The intent of the player must always be considered. We are not mind readers so that's not my argument. The point is: When a player deliberately ditches a holecard, or tries to conceal its identity. or hides a card under the table, or any other such devious action...that player must be dealt with in a manner that punishes the offender to the strictest interpretation of the rule. On the other hand, the situation described in the original post indicated that a card somehow accidentally "slipped off the table." Therefore, based on the power delegated to my position, I could not, in good conscience rule the best hand dead!
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Live Cash Game Rules Questions / Re: Cash game PLO - Difficult ruling
« Last post by Dave Miller on May 26, 2018, 04:11:47 AM »
No, Iím merely suggesting that the original poster was looking for a ruling that didnít invoke Rule One.
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Live Cash Game Rules Questions / Re: Cash game PLO - Difficult ruling
« Last post by BillM16 on May 25, 2018, 07:49:10 PM »
If we’re going to merely invoke Rule One, why don’t we just go ahead and eliminate every rule except Rule One?

That’s why I said this:
Why bother having a rule if you’re not going to enforce it?

Dave,

Why have TDA Rule #1 if it cannot be used? Are you suggesting that TDA Rule #1 be eliminated or modified?  If so, perhaps you should start a new topic on that subject.
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Live Cash Game Rules Questions / Re: Cash game PLO - Difficult ruling
« Last post by Dave Miller on May 25, 2018, 03:21:01 PM »
Bill, thanks for doing that research and quoting those rules here. I meant to do that but forgot. The first half of your post is great.

However, the second half, what are you quote Rule One, makes my head spin. The original poster wanted a ruling. If we’re going to merely invoke Rule One, why don’t we just go ahead and eliminate every rule except Rule One?

That’s why I said this:
Why bother having a rule if you’re not going to enforce it?
95
Live Cash Game Rules Questions / Re: Cash game PLO - Difficult ruling
« Last post by BillM16 on May 25, 2018, 11:59:34 AM »
Nick alluded to the fact that:  "The TDA mission is to increase global uniformity of poker tournament rules." The TDA does not include rule distinctions for cash games.  On the other hand, Robert's Rules of Poker v11 (RRoP) covers rules for both cash games and tournaments.  However, there is much in common with the RRoP and TDA rules, especially in the question that you have presented here.

There is the technical aspect to be considered given the written rules.  Both sources speak to the matter of tabling cards at showdown for a winning hand:

TDA 2017 v3 - Tabling Cards & Killing Winning Hand 
     Rule #13
     Part A: Proper tabling is both 1) turning all cards face up on the table and 2) allowing the dealer and players to read the hand clearly. “All cards” means both hole cards in hold’em, all 4 hole cards in Omaha, all 7 cards in 7-stud, etc.
     Part B: At showdown players must protect their hands while waiting for cards to be read (See also Rule 65). Players who don’t fully table all cards, then muck thinking they’ve won, do so at their own risk. If a hand is not 100% retrievable and identifiable and the TD rules it was not clearly read, the player has no claim to the pot. The TDs decision on whether a hand was sufficiently tabled is final.
     Part C: Dealers cannot kill a properly tabled hand that was obviously the winner.

 


RRoP v11 - Section 3 - General Poker Rules - The Showdown
     Rule #1 - To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards faceup on the table, whether they were used in the final hand played or not.


The TDA describes "Proper tabling" and makes clear that the TD "decides whether a hand was sufficiently tabled" and says a dealer cannot kill a properly tabled winner.

Taken literally, RRoP requires a winning hand to be tabled correctly with all required cards. "... a player must show all of his cards faceup on the table ..."

So, what about your scenario?  What about a hand that was a clear winner (100% identifiable) that was improperly tabled? Both sources provide for this as well.

TDA 2017 v3 - Floor Decisions 
     Rule #1
     The best interest of the game and fairness are top priorities in decision-making. Unusual circumstances occasionally dictate that common-sense decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over technical rules. Floor decisions are final.


Section 2 - House Policies - Decision-making
     Rule #1.     Management reserves the right to make decisions in the spirit of fairness, even if a strict interpretation of the rules may indicate a different ruling.


A TD has to ask themselves: Is it fair to award the money to a losing hand because the winning hand (100% identifiable) was mishandled (not strictly tabled properly)?

IMO: Both the TDA (tournament rules) and RRoP (cash and tournament rules) on fairness are provided so that we can override the technical rules in this case.  Give the chips/cash to the winning hand.
97
Event structuring / Re: KO + R/A
« Last post by BillM16 on May 21, 2018, 06:41:55 AM »
Pietro,

As we all know, the TDA does not provide official rules or guidelines on bounty tournaments. 

IMO:  Tournament structures can include bounties, reentries, rebuys, add-ons, etc., in as many varieties as one can imagine. Obviously, most important is that tournament rules and structure are made very clear before players enter the tournament.  Of course, finding a structure that pleases all players is likely impossible. 

Most often, (as Dave said above,) a bounty is included with each rebuy or reentry.  However, I have seen rebuy tournaments where only at the end of the rebuy period an additional add-on/bounty is offered to those who are still in the tournament.  To win a bounty, one must have purchased the add-on/bounty.  If a bounty player is busted by a non-bounty player, the bounty chip is carried into subsequent pots until a bounty player wins.  This format is similar (but different) to a last-longer prop bet.
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Event structuring / Re: KO + R/A
« Last post by Dave Miller on May 20, 2018, 07:29:27 PM »
You can allow rebuys, but the rebuy must include a new bounty, with the original bounty going to the player that knocked him out.

Add-ons should only be allowed at the time of the buy-in or rebuy.
99
Event structuring / KO + R/A
« Last post by Pietro3000 on May 20, 2018, 07:44:48 AM »
Hello,

A request from a customer was to set a KO tournament but also allowing R/A. 

The one that will take the bounty is whoever eliminate the player the last, even if the player may be zero out multiple times and allowed to R/A within a grace period.

This sort of structure may lead to other players complaints, do you guys thing that R/A  can or cannot be compatible with KO format. Should we forced make players to pay for the bounty if zero out.

Or should I dis encourage the  customer to apply such mix formats.

Regards 
100
David,

The TDA provides Rules #7 Alternates, Late Registration, & Re-Entries and #27 Re-buys for official guidance.  They require that a full stack be provided for a reentry, any forfeited chips are removed from play, and the rebuying player does not miss a hand.  A player is felted before reentry is implied.

That said, here in Oregon there are many variations in the Social Gaming Poker clubs for reentries, rebuys, and add-ons.  In general, they can be described as follows:
  • Reentry - A player must be completely felted before reentering the tournament.
  • Rebuy - One or more rebuy stacks, up to a predetermined amount (usually 1 to 3), can be purchased during an established rebuy period (for example up to the first break).  These are often called live rebuys and can be added to the players existing stack of any amount.
  • Add-on - An one-time buy of added chips that are not necessarily a full-stack and is usually at a discounted price.  This optional purchase is offered at a specified point in the tournament and is added to the players existing stack.
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