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Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General / Re: Folding OOT
« Last post by Boris Mauboussin on June 11, 2018, 01:56:13 PM »
Hello Bill,

According to me, an OOT fold should always bind (and get 1 hand penalty but this is another story)
I did not dig into the archives but I think this OOT rule might have been made to allow OOT calling players retrieve their money when facing an unexpected raise from the skipped player.

Also, this rule is highly exploitable by a player holding a big hand in specific situations.

---

After getting a read, Rule 43 44 says OOT fold is binding. (Thank you Greg)
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Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General / Folding OOT
« Last post by BillM16 on June 11, 2018, 01:15:13 PM »
This happened at a local poker club yesterday.

NLHE:  It's pre-flop and the UTG+1 player, sitting in seat 6, quickly tosses both cards facedown into the center of the table toward the dealer.  The dealer says: "Wait, it's seat 5's turn."  UTG, in seat 5, makes a min-raise.  The dealer then says to UTG+1: "The action has changed. So, you can have your hand back and you can either call, raise, or fold."

What do you say?

Regards,
B~ 
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As a dealer / rules guru for a bar league in NJ, I'm occasionally reminded by the only dealer who has dealt in the league longer than me, that it's a bar league. We depend on these people for tips, so keep it friendly.

Toward that end, we donít force all players to show their cards at a river all in. 

ó-

When Player A was showing his hand, was he holding it up so the other player could more easily see it, or merely holding it face up and inch above the table, but not dropping it onto the table?

I.E. If it were in a casino where there are overhead cameras, would the cameras have been able to see the cards?

If so, I'd give if to Player A with a warning that such action could cost him the pot in a casino. If not, then I'd be more inclined to give it to Player B since Player A's hand wasn't even close to being tabled.

On the other hand, I'd also tell both players that some casinos are using Rule One more liberally, in an effort to reduce the number of wins based upon a technicality.

HOWEVER, I might also consider if either player is an angle shooter. Not just in this hand, but in general. I.E. How do other players feel about the players involved. Again, it's about keeping it friendly.
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This happened in a local bar league tournament I was playing in recently. I'd like to hear how you'd rule before I tell you how the TD ruled...

Hand is head's up on the river. Player A pushes all in for more than what Player B has. Player B calls. Player A, while still holding his cards, shows his hand. Player B does not immediately react, although he looks disappointed, but takes a moment to look at the board to make sure he is reading the hands correctly. Player A then takes his hand (which he is still holding) and tosses them in the muck (face down, unidentifiable). Player B looks confused then says, "He has mucked. I win the hand." Player B does, in fact, have a losing hand. How would you rule this? Important note, while Player B had an obligation to immediately turn over his cards since he was all-in, he was not slow-rolling to try and scoop the pot.
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Live Cash Game Rules Questions / Re: Cash game PLO - Difficult ruling
« Last post by Dave Miller on May 26, 2018, 10:14:25 AM »
Nick -

Yeah, I guess explained that way, I agree with you.

For what itís worth, I deal in a bar league. If this had happened in the league, I would have ruled as you did, but that is more because we try to keep it friendly. I would make the ruling, but also warn that it might be ruled entirely differently in a casino.

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Live Cash Game Rules Questions / Re: Cash game PLO - Difficult ruling
« Last post by Nick C on May 26, 2018, 05:20:17 AM »
Dave, I understand your feelings about following a strict adherence to our poker rules. However, I believe the original rule makers, (sort of like the framers of our Constitution) set a high standard for the rule of law. Rule #1 gives the floor personnel or management the tools to make a sound decision in the event of a violation of a written rule. There are however important variables that could allow us to make different rulings on what appear to be two identical situations. The intent of the player must always be considered. We are not mind readers so that's not my argument. The point is: When a player deliberately ditches a holecard, or tries to conceal its identity. or hides a card under the table, or any other such devious action...that player must be dealt with in a manner that punishes the offender to the strictest interpretation of the rule. On the other hand, the situation described in the original post indicated that a card somehow accidentally "slipped off the table." Therefore, based on the power delegated to my position, I could not, in good conscience rule the best hand dead!
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Live Cash Game Rules Questions / Re: Cash game PLO - Difficult ruling
« Last post by Dave Miller on May 26, 2018, 04:11:47 AM »
No, Iím merely suggesting that the original poster was looking for a ruling that didnít invoke Rule One.
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Live Cash Game Rules Questions / Re: Cash game PLO - Difficult ruling
« Last post by BillM16 on May 25, 2018, 07:49:10 PM »
If we’re going to merely invoke Rule One, why don’t we just go ahead and eliminate every rule except Rule One?

That’s why I said this:
Why bother having a rule if you’re not going to enforce it?

Dave,

Why have TDA Rule #1 if it cannot be used? Are you suggesting that TDA Rule #1 be eliminated or modified?  If so, perhaps you should start a new topic on that subject.
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Live Cash Game Rules Questions / Re: Cash game PLO - Difficult ruling
« Last post by Dave Miller on May 25, 2018, 03:21:01 PM »
Bill, thanks for doing that research and quoting those rules here. I meant to do that but forgot. The first half of your post is great.

However, the second half, what are you quote Rule One, makes my head spin. The original poster wanted a ruling. If we’re going to merely invoke Rule One, why don’t we just go ahead and eliminate every rule except Rule One?

That’s why I said this:
Why bother having a rule if you’re not going to enforce it?
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Live Cash Game Rules Questions / Re: Cash game PLO - Difficult ruling
« Last post by BillM16 on May 25, 2018, 11:59:34 AM »
Nick alluded to the fact that:  "The TDA mission is to increase global uniformity of poker tournament rules." The TDA does not include rule distinctions for cash games.  On the other hand, Robert's Rules of Poker v11 (RRoP) covers rules for both cash games and tournaments.  However, there is much in common with the RRoP and TDA rules, especially in the question that you have presented here.

There is the technical aspect to be considered given the written rules.  Both sources speak to the matter of tabling cards at showdown for a winning hand:

TDA 2017 v3 - Tabling Cards & Killing Winning Hand 
     Rule #13
     Part A: Proper tabling is both 1) turning all cards face up on the table and 2) allowing the dealer and players to read the hand clearly. “All cards” means both hole cards in hold’em, all 4 hole cards in Omaha, all 7 cards in 7-stud, etc.
     Part B: At showdown players must protect their hands while waiting for cards to be read (See also Rule 65). Players who don’t fully table all cards, then muck thinking they’ve won, do so at their own risk. If a hand is not 100% retrievable and identifiable and the TD rules it was not clearly read, the player has no claim to the pot. The TDs decision on whether a hand was sufficiently tabled is final.
     Part C: Dealers cannot kill a properly tabled hand that was obviously the winner.

 


RRoP v11 - Section 3 - General Poker Rules - The Showdown
     Rule #1 - To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards faceup on the table, whether they were used in the final hand played or not.


The TDA describes "Proper tabling" and makes clear that the TD "decides whether a hand was sufficiently tabled" and says a dealer cannot kill a properly tabled winner.

Taken literally, RRoP requires a winning hand to be tabled correctly with all required cards. "... a player must show all of his cards faceup on the table ..."

So, what about your scenario?  What about a hand that was a clear winner (100% identifiable) that was improperly tabled? Both sources provide for this as well.

TDA 2017 v3 - Floor Decisions 
     Rule #1
     The best interest of the game and fairness are top priorities in decision-making. Unusual circumstances occasionally dictate that common-sense decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over technical rules. Floor decisions are final.


Section 2 - House Policies - Decision-making
     Rule #1.     Management reserves the right to make decisions in the spirit of fairness, even if a strict interpretation of the rules may indicate a different ruling.


A TD has to ask themselves: Is it fair to award the money to a losing hand because the winning hand (100% identifiable) was mishandled (not strictly tabled properly)?

IMO: Both the TDA (tournament rules) and RRoP (cash and tournament rules) on fairness are provided so that we can override the technical rules in this case.  Give the chips/cash to the winning hand.
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