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11

Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General / Re: Rules #12 #13 #65 Italian Field - easy but hard (?l)

« Last post by Dave Miller on April 04, 2024, 09:04:37 AM »

I think Rule 65 covered it entirely.

When a player tables their hand and declares incorrectly, they are failing to adequately protect their hand.

Similarly, when a player tables their hand silently, they leave themselves open to having the hand read incorrectly.

Dealers make mistakes too. In this particular case, the incorrect announcement of two pair encouraged the dealer to make a mistake.

Cards speak is a concept designed to avoid such dealer mistakes. It is the responsibility of other players to call attention to such mistakes.

HOWEVER, do cards still speak once in the muck? Only if identifiable and retrievable.

The floor's statement of not wanting to attempt to retrieve the cards because it "might create a problem" is contrary to Rule 65 part B. I mean, that's exactly WHY you want to attempt to retrieve them.

If cards are retrieved, if they don't form two pair, then obviously, the correct were not identifiable or retrievable. If they ARE two pair but not a flush, then the people who spoke up were wrong, or, again, not correctly identified.

In either case, if the cards aren't two pair with a flush, then it's back to Rule 65 part A, where the player didn't protect their hand.

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Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General / Rules #12 #13 #65 Italian Field - easy but hard (?l)

« Last post by Vincenzo Morabito on April 03, 2024, 07:40:16 PM »

Hello everybody, nice to see all of you again.
Today in a Italian's duscussion social group I have realized how much confusion still have Players and Dealers as well in my country about an easy topic like the showdown and the muck.

I am going to quote the original question translated by Italian ( I posted the Italian original under the tda rules section as well)

We are at one of the €200 Flight day1 Mini Irish Opens. In one spot I'm at UTG with a lady who occupies SB, so I'm in position and it comes to the river. She Bets, I call because I have a set. The lady announces "two pair", showing the cards, I announce "not enough" and turn over the set. The Dealer takes the lady's cards and mucks them without looking at them (on the board there are 3 suited cards and two no-suited cards that make up the lady's two pair). One player says that the lady had the flush's cards and she would have won, two others players support him. I didn't see it because I was focused on my set. They call the floor who decides to assign the pot to the lady..."by trust" of the testimony of the three, without putting their hand to the muck. I ask to check the muck but floor refuses. Being the loser of the situation, I insist but apparently my opinion doesn't count. Floor claims he can't put his hand in the muck because if the lady's flush cards weren't there it would be a problem. I honestly don't see the problem, because at this point he could have turned the entire deck of the remaining undistributed cards instead of the muck and if one of the two flush cards that make up the lady's two pair had appeared, the pot would have automatically gone to me. 18 years of poker...I missed this!"

Summarized:
- River Villain shows and declare "two pairs"
- Hero shows 3 of a kind aces
- Dealer mucks the villain's card and move the pot to hero
- 4 Players speak up about a mistake coz Villain has Flush, before the new hand stars
- Floor asks players and confirms and gives the pot to Villain
- hero asks to check the muck
- Floor denies the request
- no camera available

In my opinion all is easy to manage. And the Floor has made the right decision for #2 #12 #13

A lot of people are confusing this with the #65 for muck in a dead hand never showed, totally ignoring the topic's dinamic of a 100% correct showdown procedure.


The reason of this post it's primarly to mark what I am seeing like a great lack in the common ruling knowdlege  among players and even dealers. (An entire community very confused about that)

Thank you for your contribiute!

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Official Poker TDA Tournament Rules, Latest Version / Re: Rules #12 #13 #65 Italian Field - easy but hard (?l)

« Last post by Vincenzo Morabito on April 03, 2024, 05:28:44 PM »

Original question translated:

We are at one of the €200 Flight day1 Mini Irish Opens. In one spot I'm at UTG with a lady who occupies SB, so I'm in position and it comes to the river. She Bets, I call because I have a set. The lady announces "two pair", showing the cards, I announce "not enough" and turn over the set. The Dealer takes the lady's cards and mucks them without looking at them (on the board there are 3 suited cards and two no-suited cards that make up the lady's two pair). One player says that the lady had the flush's cards and she would have won, two others players support him. I didn't see it because I was focused on my set. They call the floor who decides to assign the pot to the lady..."by trust" of the testimony of the three, without putting their hand to the muck. I ask to check the muck but floor refuses. Being the loser of the situation, I insist but apparently my opinion doesn't count. Floor claims he can't put his hand in the muck because if the lady's flush cards weren't there it would be a problem. I honestly don't see the problem, because at this point he could have turned the entire deck of the remaining undistributed cards instead of the muck and if one of the two flush cards that make up the lady's two pair had appeared, the pot would have automatically gone to me. 18 years of poker...I missed this!"

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Official Poker TDA Tournament Rules, Latest Version / Rules #12 #13 #65 Italian Field - easy but hard (?l)

« Last post by Vincenzo Morabito on April 03, 2024, 03:44:31 PM »

Hello everybody, nice to see all of you again.
Today in a Italian's duscussion social group I have realized how much confusion still have Players and Dealers as well in my country about an easy topic like the showdown and the muck.

I am going to quote (pls translate) the original question and summarizing then:


"Siamo ad uno dei Flight day1 Mini Irish Open da 200€.
In uno spot sono da UTG con una signora che occupa SB, quindi sono in posizione e si arriva a river.
Lei Betta, io chiamo perché ho settato.
La signora annuncia "doppia coppia", mostrando le carte, io annuncio "non basta" e giro set.
Il Dealer prende le carte della signora e le mucka senza guardarle (sul board ci sono 3 carte a colore e due carte non a colore che compongono la doppia della signora).
Un giocatore dice che la signora aveva le due carte a colore e avrebbe vinto lei, altri due lo appoggiano.
Io non ho visto perché ero concentrato sul mio set.
Chiamano il floor che decide di assegnare il piatto alla signora..."sulla fiducia" della testimonianza dei tre, senza mettere mano al muck.
Chiedo di controllare il muck ma floor rifiuta. Essendo io il perdente della situazione, insisto ma a quanto pare la mia opinione non conta.
Floor sostiene di non poter mettere mano al muck perché se non ci fossero le carte a colore della signora sarebbe un problema.
Io il problema onestamente non lo vedo, perché a questo punto poteva anche girare tutto il mazzo delle restanti non distribuite invece del muck e se fosse comparsa una delle due carte a colore che compongono la doppia coppia della signora il piatto sarebbe andato automaticamente a me.

18 anni di poker...questa mi mancava!"

Summarized:
- River Villain shows and declare "two pairs"
- Hero shows 3 of a kind aces
- Dealer muck the villain's card and move the pot to hero
- 4 Players speak up about a mistake coz Villain has Flush, before the new hand stars
- Floor asks players and confirms and gives the pot to Villain
- hero asks to check the muck
- Floor denies the request
- no camera available

In my opinion all is easy to manage. And the Floor has made the right decision for #2 #12 #13

A lot of people are confusing the #65 and muck as a dead hand never showed, totally jumping the dinamic of a 100% correct showdown procedure.

Thank you for your contribute.

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Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General / Re: Color Down Single Oversize Chip

« Last post by Nick C on March 27, 2024, 07:01:37 PM »

I may have missed the point of your question.

If a player tosses his 500 chip when facing a 100 bet...it is a call.
My answer was directed to the dealer making change immediately instead of leaving the 500 in the betting area. I suggest making change as you go along because there aretimes when multiple rases take place and you can forget which player is in for the properamount.

Of course, after the flop initiating a bet with your single 500 chip, is the amount of the bet.

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Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General / Re: Dealer says its 300 more to you

« Last post by Nick C on March 27, 2024, 06:43:14 PM »

I can see this issue will never be settled.

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Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General / Re: 2 cases folding too soon

« Last post by Nick C on March 27, 2024, 05:31:44 PM »

Our friend doesn't want us to address dealer mistakes, but tell me, when dealing the first thing you ask for are blinds to be posted. So how does a player fold without his blind and when did he fold?

I will never agree to retrieving anything from the muck...sorry, unless it were clearly tabled before it was mucked! You surrender your hand, it's dead!

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Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General / Re: Dealer says its 300 more to you

« Last post by Dave Miller on March 26, 2024, 03:47:34 PM »

I agree with the logic and reasoning for not counting down an all in bet.

For the record, in my bar league, we always count down every bet that isn’t obvious. But that’s primarily because our games are short stack turbo: 1,500 chips, with blinds that start at 11 minutes and get shorter as players are knocked out. We don’t have time to fart around with people trying to guess the bet amounts. Similar for going into the tank. Anyone can call clock, even the dealer. And when the clock is called, it starts to immediately, and is only 30 seconds.

Our games last about an hour or so, and we do three in an evening.

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Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General / Re: 2 cases folding too soon

« Last post by Dave Miller on March 26, 2024, 03:33:46 PM »

When playing online, none of these scenarios are even possible. You can't act out of turn and you can not retrieve a mucked hand.

While you can’t retrieve mucked cards, you CAN act out of turn.

When I get new players in my league, I ask about their poker experience. When they tell me they play online, I tell them the software does things for you, and encourages you to learn bad habits. Specifically, online you can call or fold ahead of time, as well as check a box to automatically post blinds. In online limit poker, you can even automatically raise even if there’s a raise before you.

But auto posting is why some players often forget to post, then act first when they are BB.

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Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General / Re: Color Down Single Oversize Chip

« Last post by Dave Miller on March 26, 2024, 03:12:20 PM »

You may have missed my point:

Otherwise, asking for a clarification effectively gives the player time to gauge reactions and change their intention.

I try to avoid situations were I might need to clarify a mumbled verbal action.