PokerTDA
LIVE CASH GAME POKER RULES DISCUSSION => Live Cash Game Rules Questions => Topic started by: markmagic on March 04, 2012, 08:11:29 AM
-
texas hold em $10-20 blinds
player A raise $50 and player B and C call then SB didnt notice that the pot was raised
he just put $10... is it binding?
-
Markmagic: I think we need some additional information in order to make an informed response. For example,
1. Did player A verbally announce his raise or just put $50 into the pot?
2. Did the dealer verbally announce player A's raise or just let it slide?
3. Are there any other factors that would explain, either for or against, why the SB did not know about the raise?
If you can provide more information, we can provide a better answer.
Chet
-
Because this is posted under "cash games" I would allow the player to retract the $10 and fold leaving the SB only in the pot.
-
In my cash games yes, the $10 has to stay in as it is the players responsibility to keep abreast of current action, some will allow the SB to 'retract and re-consider' his actions (as Nick has stated above) it's really a decision for your house rules.
Regards
Stuart
-
thank you so much guys
-
Our house rule would bind it as the bet was called in turn. Even though it is the wrong bet amount if it was put into the pot in turn, it is binding. To echo Stuart, players have to be aware of what is happening at the table.
-
Spence,
Really? in a cash game? Wow, you guys are tough.
-
Our house rule would bind it as the bet was called in turn. Even though it is the wrong bet amount if it was put into the pot in turn, it is binding. To echo Stuart, players have to be aware of what is happening at the table.
Spence - I assume that when you say "binding"' you mean that the money that was put into the pot stays in, but the player can still fold (I.e. he would NOT be forced to call the full 50).
-
K-Lo, Spence, Mark, Stuart and Chet,
I thought I'd address the group that responded to this question. In all of the years of training dealers I have always advised them to encourage players at their table to clarify their intentions. One of the issues that I've experienced is the players that say nothing, and just push their bet forward. As a dealer and a player, I've always preferred the players that clearly announce their action, especially the amount they intend on betting. The rules however, do not promote verbal declarations. Consider the player who announces a call on an incorrect bet of $20, when there was a $100 raise in front of him that he somehow missed. If he pushed his $20 forward without saying anything, he might be allowed to retract his wager...right? However, if the same player announced a call, he might be committed to the full bet. If a player behind him acts, then he's really in trouble. This is why I disagree so often with the strict rules used in tournament play. I always go back to some of the older rules that don't have reference numbers but are under rules of etiquette and ethics. If the player obviously had no intention of calling a raise, is it in the best interest of the game to force him to call?
The point I'm trying to make is, the rules do not encourage saying anything and I can understand why some players don't say a word. Perhaps we should play "mum poker,"
(don't laugh), I actually played in a house game where players were charged $$$ any time they spoke.
I like it when players and dealers announce bets and raises but I think many rules support the opposite.
How do you feel? I want to encourage clarity, but is it wise for players to comply with verbal declarations? The risks can be too great.
-
I have no problems with silent action. Poker is indeed a game of alertness and observation, players making declaring their action is just another tell, for example someone who announces raise in a stern voice and then on the next occasion announces raise with a slight squawk or squeak, gives everybody at the table who is paying attention more information to formulate a range.
I know of a few places that actively require players to announce everything, but IMO the game suffers as a result, I always find it best for players to learn how to bet and raise using their chips, rather than their voices.
Regards
Stu
-
Our house rule would bind it as the bet was called in turn. Even though it is the wrong bet amount if it was put into the pot in turn, it is binding. To echo Stuart, players have to be aware of what is happening at the table.
Spence - I assume that when you say "binding"' you mean that the money that was put into the pot stays in, but the player can still fold (I.e. he would NOT be forced to call the full 50).
You are correct. The amount is bound to the pot. A call is not binding. Unless of course verbalized
-
I think binding would also fall under the category of whther the player is experienced or not. It would be a bit harsh IMO to forfeit the 10 is they arent experienced. This is a grey area however.
-
Wolfster,
This is similar to another recent post that you responded to, yet on one you want to commit a player to his action, and on this one you want to give him some slack if he's inexperienced. I agree with you but, rules don't separate experienced player's from new ones. This is when the decision of the floor should be based on any number of circumstances, and (as you've stated) the player's experience (and reputation) could be a factor when making your call. Like I said, I agree with you but so many other's do not.
Do you feel different because this is a cash game?
-
No I do not feel different because its a cash game, and you are entitled to your opinions but I feel experience counts towards every aspect. Apologies for not putting it in previous posts.
-
I would rule that the player must either call $50 total OR forfeit his extra $10 and fold. I would make this rule every single time.
-
Brian,
This is a cash game. Why would any player put $10 in the pot if they thought the bet was raised? It was obviously a misunderstanding. I tried to find something that might define the required amount to classify as a "gross" misunderstanding. That, of course, I was not able to find. I do think that $50 is a substantial amount to many, especially if the player thought he were calling a $10 bet.
-
I see no reason the rule should be any different in cash and tournament. In a tournament if the blinds were 1000-2000, there was a raise to 10,000, then a re-raise to 50,000, and the small blind stuck out 10,000 he'd have to leave that in the pot or call the 50,000. I see no reason to make a different ruling for the exact same scenario just because it's live or tournament.
As Stuart said, it is the player's responsibility to stay abreast of the situation and if he's not there are consequences.
Far fetched or unlikely as it sounds, what if it's an angle shoot? The guy can say call and stick out $10 to try to get a reaction knowing that if he sees somehing he doesn't like he can just say "Oh I thought it was $10" and he gets his money. If the other player doesn't look comfortable when he says call, then he can say "Oh it's $50? OK, I'll call anyway".
-
Far fetched, indeed! You guys are brutal ;D I hope your not the guy that raises to $50 (bluffing), hoping the guy doesn't call, and the floor comes over and forces him to call and beat your ass! You better stick to tournaments because it doesn't work that way in cash games.
Robert's Rules Version 11. Betting and Raising:
13. A player who bets or calls by releasing chips into the pot is bound by that action and must make the amount of the wager correct. (This also applies right before the showdown when putting chips into the pot causes the opponent to show the winning hand before the full amount needed to call has been put into the pot.) However, if you are unaware that the pot has been raised, you may withdraw that money and reconsider your action, provided that no one else has acted after you. At pot-limit or no-limit betting, if there is a gross misunderstanding concerning the amount of the wager, see Section 14, Rule 8
-
Could we also consider the 50% rule with this situation? In this case it would stay at $10. However other if the SB had put in $30 or more without saying anything then hold him to the full amount no?
-
Wolf,
If he put another $30 on top of his $10 SB (total $40), of course he would have to complete the bet to $50.
-
Could we also consider the 50% rule with this situation? In this case it would stay at $10. However other if the SB had put in $30 or more without saying anything then hold him to the full amount no?
To build on this what about a the player that didn't realize there had been a raise to $50 and calls "Raise to $40"?
Is the raise binding?
Is the $40 committed and he's still allowed to fold?
Or does he have to make it a call at $50?
Thoughts?