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POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS => Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General => Topic started by: cloudtiger on February 02, 2012, 10:45:45 AM

Title: request for count of unbet chips
Post by: cloudtiger on February 02, 2012, 10:45:45 AM
2 players in a hand. on the flop player A bets 3000, player B asks him "how much do you have". player A says nothing just pushes his chip stack slightly forward to give player B a clear view of his stack ( which is in neat, countable stacks). player B then asks the dealer for a count of player A's remaining chips. is the dealer obliged to count the remaining chips?
rule 21 states Players are entitled to a reasonable estimation of an opponent's chip count; thus chips should be kept in countable stacks. The TDA recommends clean stacks in multiples of 20 as a standard. Players must keep their higher denomination chips visible and identifiable at all times.
in my view ( i may be wrong ) the dealer should not be obliged to count the remaining chips
Title: Re: request for count of unbet chips
Post by: Luca P. on February 02, 2012, 11:22:25 AM
Well, it's not a obligation, more a courtesy.
The procedure I usually reccomend to my dealers is:
1) let the player count each other stacks
2) if player asks how much is the bet, then I let the dealer arrange the chips in another way they could be count easly
3) if still player refuse to count and ask in a kind manner the dealer to count for him, then the dealer count the chips of the bet, not the remaining stack

#EDIT
I had a discussion with another collegue.
We came to the conclusion that the dealer could count the bet, not the stack. If the player refuses to count, it's up to him, the dealer should call the floor and the floor should explain the rule to the player and in some occasion assess a light penlity
Title: Re: request for count of unbet chips
Post by: K-Lo on February 02, 2012, 01:23:58 PM
Player B is entitled to, on player B's turn, a count of the wager made by Player A (i.e. the 3000 in this example). 

Chips that are not yet in the pot (behind), however, should not be counted by the Dealer.  The Dealer can ask that Player A arrange his chips "behind" into clearly visible, countable stacks if they are not already so arranged (e.g. same denomination chips stacked together, and in multiples of 20), but neither Player A nor the Dealer has any further obligation to provide a count of those chips behind.  Poker is a visual game.  If all of the chips behind are in plain view and in countable stacks, it is Player B's responsibility to correctly assess what Player A has remaining.   

With respect, I do not think it is a violation of courtesy or etiquette to refuse to give a verbal count of chips behind.  If I, as a player, have already made the effort to put my chips into a neatly countable form and am not hiding chips, why should I be penalized if my opponent then wants a count but is too lazy or unable to count it himself?
Title: Re: request for count of unbet chips
Post by: DCJ001 on February 02, 2012, 02:00:24 PM
K-Lo is exactly correct.

Counting or estimating another player's stack is part of the game that should require the assistance of no one, assuming that the chips are neatly stacked with the larger denominations in plain sight.

This is similar to a player's responsibility of keeping track of the size of the pot in No Limit Hold 'em. In this game, dealer's should not assist players in keeping track of the size of the pot, or other players' stacks.
Title: Re: request for count of unbet chips
Post by: K-Lo on February 02, 2012, 02:20:59 PM
Counting or estimating another player's stack is part of the game that should require the assistance of no one, assuming that the chips are neatly stacked with the larger denominations in plain sight.

This is similar to a player's responsibility of keeping track of the size of the pot in No Limit Hold 'em. In this game, dealer's should not assist players in keeping track of the size of the pot, or other players' stacks.

+1  Agreed.
Title: Re: request for count of unbet chips
Post by: cloudtiger on February 02, 2012, 05:34:04 PM
k-lo and dcj001, i agree entirely with your assessment of the situation. thank you both for taking the time to reply.

linker split you said "I had a discussion with another collegue.
We came to the conclusion that the dealer could count the bet, not the stack. If the player refuses to count, it's up to him, the dealer should call the floor and the floor should explain the rule to the player and in some occasion assess a light penlity "
why would you penalise a player who had his chips in neat countable stacks?






Title: Re: request for count of unbet chips
Post by: Nick C on February 02, 2012, 06:12:19 PM
Gentlemen:
 We could go round-and-round all day on this one. If I'm playing in a game and I make a wager, why would I not want the opponent to know how much I bet? What about the rule that states the player should make his intentions clear? I don't agree with assessing a penalty either but I do agree with everything else that took place on Linker_Split's discussion with his colleague. Call the floor and let them explain the tournament rules. I agree the dealer should not count the bettors remaining stack but I don't like the Accepted Action Rule introduced at the last Summit.

 The way the current rules are, it is pointless to ask anything about even the amount that is wagered (forget the player's remaining chips), because if the player or dealer tells you the wrong amount, you still have to correct it to what it is ::)
 
Title: Re: request for count of unbet chips
Post by: DCJ001 on February 02, 2012, 07:01:05 PM
Nick C wrote:
Quote
The way the current rules are, it is pointless to ask anything about even the amount that is wagered (forget the player's remaining chips), because if the player or dealer tells you the wrong amount, you still have to correct it to what it is

This statement makes no sense.

Players are not allowed to touch another player's bet or raise.

If a player asks a dealer for the amount of a bet or raise, the dealer should count the bet for the player in such a way that the player may count the bet or raise along with the dealer. If a player makes a bet or raise in one tall stack, or in a pile of chips that is not organized, players should pay attention to the way that dealers organize the bet or raise and ensure that the dealer's count matches his own count of the chips.
Title: Re: request for count of unbet chips
Post by: cloudtiger on February 02, 2012, 08:34:12 PM
 nick c, i think you misunderstood. there is no confusion concerning the amount of the bet. the bet was 3000 and this was clearly understood by all parties. the only issue here is whether the dealer should count the remaining chips ( chips that have not been bet ) by player A. i believe the answers give by  dcj001 and k-lo deal more than adequately with this point
Title: Re: request for count of unbet chips
Post by: Luca P. on February 03, 2012, 12:53:04 AM
Maybe I made my self not clear :)
I said  "and in some occasion assess a light penlity" to the player who refuses to count the stack, not the one who put the stack countable
Title: Re: request for count of unbet chips
Post by: cloudtiger on February 03, 2012, 08:43:54 AM
 thanks linker split for the clarification.
i dont think a player has any obligation to count out his remaining chip (i.e. unbet chips ). in the situation i outlined above players A's stack was in neat, countable stacks
in my view a player whose stack is not in neat, countable stacks should be told by the dealer to arrange his chips in such a way as to make it easy for other players to get a reasonable estimation of the amount of chips he has.
if a player refuses to do this, then the dealer should call the floor to deal with this situation
Title: Re: request for count of unbet chips
Post by: chet on February 03, 2012, 10:01:31 AM
As an example, I believe Doyle Brunson stated on one TV show or another that he would never count his remaining stacks for another player, he would have his chips in proper stacks, but the player has to determine what he has left.

There is no requirement that a player count their remaining chips and to even think about assessing any type of penalty/warning to a player who refuses to do so is just plain wrong, provided the remaining chips are stacked and displayed properly.
Title: Re: request for count of unbet chips
Post by: mooredog on February 04, 2012, 08:43:22 AM
Searching the rules you'll find #21 allows for a reasonable estimate of stack size. In our room all in bets are counted only upon request by a player in the hand but we have never had a player stop a dealer from counting chips behind when asked. Even though #21 only allows for a reasonable estimate I see nowhere in the rules forbidding an actual count of the chips left in a players stack. If they are clearly in stacks of 20 it really should not be much of a problem for anyone to figure the total out so we do allow our dealers to count them. Are we wrong? Do they count the chips behind when asked at the WSOP or at WPT events?
Title: Re: request for count of unbet chips
Post by: DCJ001 on February 04, 2012, 09:58:31 AM
Searching the rules you'll find #21 allows for a reasonable estimate of stack size. In our room all in bets are counted only upon request by a player in the hand but we have never had a player stop a dealer from counting chips behind when asked. Even though #21 only allows for a reasonable estimate I see nowhere in the rules forbidding an actual count of the chips left in a players stack. If they are clearly in stacks of 20 it really should not be much of a problem for anyone to figure the total out so we do allow our dealers to count them. Are we wrong? Do they count the chips behind when asked at the WSOP or at WPT events?

The reasonable estimation to which rule 21 refers has to do with players keeping their chips in stacks of 20 and higher denomination chips visible so that other players, not dealers, may obtain reasonable estimations. Dealers should not assist players in obtaining estimations of other players' chip stacks. Doing so would be in violation of "one player to a hand."

The rules do not say that dealers should not be counting players' stacks. But, then again, the rules do not say that dealers should not stand on their heads on the tables while dealing the cards. Just because the rules do not say that something should not be done doesn't mean that it should be done.
Title: Re: request for count of unbet chips
Post by: K-Lo on February 04, 2012, 04:07:01 PM
I would also add that Dealers shouldn't be reaching behind into players stacks anyways to touch those chips, for counting or otherwise.  Chips that have been wagered should be pushed forward by the player, and of course, since they are in the pot, they then become part of the dealer's domain and can be counted or otherwise handled.  But chips behind a player should generally be left alone, by both the players and the dealers, to minimize the risk of chips being stolen, swapped, added, etc.  Sometimes we may have to go into a stack to place an ante or blind for an absent player, but other than that, chips behind should be left alone.
Title: Re: request for count of unbet chips
Post by: mooredog on February 04, 2012, 09:44:35 PM
Never have we had a dealer reach into anyone's stack. The player usually counts it when asked themselves or arranges it to where it is can easily seen and estimated accurately. Then, and only then if the player decides to be mute the dealer will say how much it is. In clear stacks of 20 an estimate is usually pretty easily done.
Title: Re: request for count of unbet chips
Post by: K-Lo on February 05, 2012, 10:47:52 AM
if the player decides to be mute the dealer will say how much it is.

As DCJ noted, I do not believe this is the current trend as a matter of procedure... if a player decides to be mute about how much he has behind, it's not up to the Dealer to then chime in.  The chips are not yet part of a wager so the Dealer has no obligation to count it - the player who is thinking of calling needs to know how to count chips behind a player by sight - that is part of the game.  As long as they are arranged "where it can be easily seen and estimated accurately", then this should not be a problem.  

The other thing is that if the Dealer does chooses to intervene and voluntarily gives a count, and then gets the count very wrong, this is going to create a whole new series of problems that you'll have to deal with later... How are you going to explain that the players should not have relied on the dealer's count in the first place?  Why open this can of worms?
Title: Re: request for count of unbet chips
Post by: Spence on February 06, 2012, 10:37:34 PM
The other thing is that if the Dealer does chooses to intervene and voluntarily gives a count, and then gets the count very wrong, this is going to create a whole new series of problems that you'll have to deal with later... How are you going to explain that the players should not have relied on the dealer's count in the first place?  Why open this can of worms?
This is the whole issue we are having about accepted action. If the dealer does make a huge error as the player you are still obligated. I think some onus should be on the dealer here to correct misinformation but not do the count for the player who is asking. As a delaer I only once had to ask a player what amount he was stacking in. Our TDA rules prefer 20 stacks. Not all players put their chips in 20 stacks. I see many players stack in 25's as it is simpler for themselves to count. I had to ask how high are your stacks for clarification. Above that I can't see why the dealer would involve himself.
Title: Re: request for count of unbet chips
Post by: mooredog on February 08, 2012, 01:39:25 PM
Here's a hypothetical situation to ponder. Three players approaching the money. Player A has about 200K ,player B has about 100K , and player C about 200K. Player A likes his hand and wants to put player B to the test for all his chips but does not want a side pot and wants to know if he can survive if player C goes all in and A calls. He asks for their chip counts and they stay silent. He tells the dealer "I bet exactly what player B has left." If player B calls they'll count the chips but if he folds then what? Is it even a valid bet? Probably not. It's like saying "I bet the pot" in a no limit tourney. Not valid.
Title: Re: request for count of unbet chips
Post by: DCJ001 on February 08, 2012, 01:46:10 PM
Definitely not. It's like saying "I bet the pot" in a no limit tourney.

Not valid.
Title: Re: request for count of unbet chips
Post by: K-Lo on February 08, 2012, 02:10:26 PM
Agree with DCJ.

If the player says "I bet exactly what player B has left", the dealer should ask for clarification.  It's not like A would be unable to count B's chips... it's up to A to identify the specific amount that he wants to bet.  If A is too lazy to do so, I have no sympathy.