PokerTDA
POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS => Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General => Topic started by: W0lfster on February 11, 2011, 06:18:32 AM
-
A little confusion here that I would like confirmation.
What happens in a tournament when you accidentally expose your hole cards when a hand is being played and you havent folded, from what I know your hand is not dead. If this is so, does that mean the player is no longer allowed to bet in the hand and will be skipped but can still claim the pot at showdown if the winner?
Also does the same rule apply in cash games?
Thx
Andy :)
-
Andy,
If you accidentaly expose your cards in a tournament (or cash game), the main concern is that all active players see your exposed cards. Your hand is not dead, unless you fold, and no.... you can not compete for the pot without calling all bets. You will be playing with an open hand and that's not a good way to show a profit in a poker game, is it?
-
I dont get it, so if you cannot win then why isnt your hand dead? :S CONFUSED?!!!
-
Andy,
If you don't understand what I have written then I think your question has to be explained a little more clearly. I'm having a tough time trying to figure why you would ask a question like this. This is not black jack...it's POKER, you can't show any cards to anyone until the showdown. If you ACCIDENTALLY expose your hand, you not only hinder your chances for winning, but you may seriously affect the betting, and the outcome of the hand. If your accidental exposure of your cards continues, you will probably have to find another cardroom to play in.
-
Nick, I dont want a conversation about what I can or cant post on here I just would like please the ruling on this situation and to be fair I think youd be penalised for this offence continuing, I dont think I should find another card room if this happened to me.
-
Andy,
Think about the effect one exposed card could have on any hand. I've stopped further betting in hands where cards were prematurely exposed. You are correct about posting whatever you want. The original question stated that it was an accident, so we should consider that. The first accident should be followed by a warning. If the accidents continue....yes, a penalty (in a tournament) would be the way to go. My answer about finding another cardroom was for any player that exposes their hand on a regular basis. It would be tough to find any serious players to compete against. I'm sorry if I offended you.
-
Thats ok Nick and thanks, so are you therefore saying his/her hand remains face up for the duration of the hand or what? Why not just have the dealer muck the cards if he/she has no claim to the pot and cannot bet? And yes this is purely for accidental purposes.
-
Hi Andy,
Exposing your hand rules vary from venue to venue, some will announce your hand dead immediately (the WPT used to use this rule not sure if they have changed yet or not) but most TDA compliant rules allow the hand to remain live in tournament poker. We allow the hand to still play (intentionally exposed or accidentally) as it is not in the best interests of tournament poker to kill a hand which is in play. The object of tournament poker is for one player to have all the chips and killing a hand impedes the tournament.
My own tournament players shall receive a penalty of at least 1 hand, if they expose their cards in violation of the 'one player to a hand rule' and they may be restricted to 'passive' play only during the hand.
With regard to cash game poker, there is a mixture of rules out there and they vary widely between cardrooms, especially in Europe with the majority allowing you to continue if you have accidentally exposed your cards but killing your hand if you intentionally expose your cards.
Regards
Stu
-
So are you saying Stu that the player gets a chance to claim the pot? Please these answers just arent clear enough for me as Nick says one thing and your implying another thing.
-
Wolfster: The hand is LIVE and if it is the best hand at the showdown it would win the pot (assuming the player does not fold). It can also win a share, if the 'board plays', again assuming the player has not folded. It would make absolutely NO SENSE to keep the hand live, if it did not have an opportunity to win.
TDA Rule 42 applies and any warning/penalty is applied at the end of the hand.
As to whether this player would be restricted to only passive play, there is NO TDA rule governing this directly as far as I know. On a first instance, I certainly would not consider any such restriction. However, I understand Stuart's position and if this became something more than an isolation instance or accident, I can fully support the imposition of such.
That said, I think the restriction to only passive play would have to be covered with a "House Rule" since there is no provision for that type of penalty/restriction anywhere in the TDA Rules. TDA Rule 40 does not include any provision for 'passive play', at least that is how I read it.
Hope this helps!!
-
Ok so let me get this straight, the cards are left with the player but are not folded/dead. So am I right in saying once and for all the player cannot bet on later streets but can win the pot anyway? I dont think this is fair as he/she hasnt committed enough to win if there were any bets/raises after the infringement.
-
Don't these paragraphs, from my prior post, answer your question?
"As to whether this player would be restricted to only passive play, there is NO TDA rule governing this directly as far as I know. On a first instance, I certainly would not consider any such restriction. However, I understand Stuart's position and if this became something more than an isolation instance or accident, I can fully support the imposition of such.
That said, I think the restriction to only passive play would have to be covered with a "House Rule" since there is no provision for that type of penalty/restriction anywhere in the TDA Rules. TDA Rule 40 does not include any provision for 'passive play', at least that is how I read it."
If you, as the TD, or the card room choose to implement a "passive play" rule, so be it. The choice is yours. The TDA has no rule as such. Personally, I would NOT impose such a restriction UNLESS it was in combination with another penalty for repeatedly exposing one or both cards.
-
Andy,
You probably don't want to hear from me again but, I'm having a tough time understanding your situation. You can get mad at me if you want, that's okay. I have a difficult time making the right call when I don't understand the question. In order to get the correct answer I need you to break down all of the information that you can. How many players? What betting round? etc, etc. Your initial question indicates to me that there is more betting to follow. If that is the case, I see no options other than calling any bets in front of you (with your exposed hand) or taking any action that you would normally take if no mishap occured. That would include checking, or betting, or even raising with your cards exposed for all to see. You may still win but, I sure would feel uncomfortable if someone called. If you expose your hand, you can not declare yourself all-in and play for any portion of the pot, unless you really are, all-in. If I missed again, then I'm afraid I can't help.
Andy, whether the cards remain face up or not is irrelevant, as long as they were announced and the remaining players know the rank and suit.
Stuart and Chet, I need your definition of passive play. Thanks
-
Ok ok its getting heated here Ill stop :(
-
Andy,
I think an actual situation might help you to understand. So here is one just off the top of my head...
P1 and P2 are the only players left in the pot with the board cards, Kh Qs Jd Tc. Before the last card is revealed, P2 accidentally shows their hand which is 9h 8c. The Dealer, not realising the error, produces the 9s as the river card. As P2 realises their mistake, they flip their hand face down but not before P1 has seen P2's hand.
These questions are for you Andy:
a) If you were P1 and were holding Ah Kd also knowing you couldn't lose, would you bet?
b) What would be the way to make money from this hand?
c) What if P1 showed their hand instead. If you were P2 and you knew you would lose, would you make the call?
You don't have to tell me your answers but please think carefully about your answers as it could mean the difference between walking away with a lot of money or none at all.
As you have heard, TDA Rules state that in this situation, the hand is LIVE and IN MY ROOM can be played however that player wants.
Also as TDs, we need to take all things into account for example, intentional, accidental, etc.
Hpoe this helps
-
Nick: My interpretation of what Stuart was saying, is that the player who exposed his/her hole cards, would only be able to react to other players actions. In other words, if it was checked around to that player he/she could only check or maybe fold. If there was a bet, he/she would only be able to fold or call. The offending player could not initiate any action.
As I said before, I don't see any way I would ever implement such a restriction unless I have a player who is making a habit of exposing his/her hole cards. I have never had a rule that would allow such, but I might consider it in the future.
Does that help?
-
Hi Nick/Chet,
Yip everything Chet has said is correct and with regard to limiting a player to passive play, it is rarely used, given the amateur nature of the majority of players in the leagues initiating passive play is something I do impose when a player intentionally exposes their hand or accidentally where I believe doing nothing would damage the fair and just results of the tournament. Where it is experienced players it is not really an issue so you can let the hand play out as is, it is more a protection of amateur players which is the resolve of why I use it.
To confirm passive play it is check, call, fold only. Raise, Re-raise and Bet are not available options to a player who has been 'bound'
Regards
Stuart
-
Andy,
I don't think it's heated (anymore). I do think that all of us are a little confused and need a better example. I know that the original question indicated that it was an ACCIDENT, so the hand would be live and the offending player would be at the mercy of the players that saw his hand. That's the way I see it.
Stuart and Chet might be able to enforce some type of betting restriction, or penalty for a tournament, I guess. I know of no specific rule that covers the accidental exposed card, and I was surprised to hear Stuart mention; that a WPT Ruling actually could rule the hand dead? Wow, you'd better hang on to that nut hand for dear life in that game.
Andy, sorry for my lack of patience on my earlier reply, and thanks for giving us something to ponder all afternoon.
I want to repeat something that I said earlier; any exposed cards, with action pending, could restrict any further betting.
-
Andy,
Having just read through the thread it seems to me that the unclear bit for you is "what is passive play". Passive play means that all a player can do is call any bets that he faces, he can't raise or make a bet of his own. This means that he is putting in the same amount of chips as anyone else, he just isn't taking aggressive action. So at the end when everybody shows down and he somehow still wins then he can claim the pot.
I am on the side of things that say the player can still play his hand the way he wants to after the cards are exposed and no, he does not have to keep them open (well, in my game s they don't) but he is playing with a hand that everybody knows and is at a huge disadvantage. He has no fold equity, bluffs are non existent and unless he accidently exposed the nuts he will likely be pushed off his hand.
The technical part of the rule is: hands is live, he puts chips in to call if he wants a chance at the pot, best hand wins, he gets penalty if he keeps doing it.
-
Thats ok Nick and I am glad that I have brought something of importance to this forum. Thank you Jasper! It is MUCH clearer now! I apologise I guess I do not know all the poker clack as you call it, but just someone who needs logical step by step rulings down to the last detail. I do tend to keep asking if I do not have full confirmation on my questions which I apologise to those who may get impatient. So Jasper are you saying if there is no bet in a betting round are you forced to check? Also are you not allowed to fold?
Thx. :)
-
Also if everyone here is saying they would rarely use passive play as a rule in this situation then how would the hand be played out? What would the difference be? Would they be allowed to raise or what?
-
Wolfster:
If there is no provision for passive play, then the ONLY effect on the current hand is that EVERY OTHER player knows what the offending players hole cards are and that player has no knowledge of the other players hole cards. This is a HUGE disadvantage to the offending player. The offending player can be as aggressive as he/she sees fit and can bet, raise, re-raise, etc. In short, there are no restrictions to the options available to the offending player for the play of the current hand.
Any penalty, under TDA rules, would be applied at the end of the current hand.
I don't know what else we can say to make this 'crystal clear'.
-
I think we all have to look at the serious damage that exposing even one card can do. Handing out a penalty on the next hand offers no protection to players in the hand where cards were exposed. Players may have the opportunity to see that they are now holding a hand that can no longer be beat. This is a far more serious issue than worrying about the guy that dropped his cards. It's too easy to show your partner your hand. Your tournament life could be at stake. I've posted a suggestion for rule changes that you might look at.
-
So basically, if this was a deliberate exposure, you would all rule the hand dead?
-
No Andy, not the way I see it, at least not the first offense. TDA Rules 40 and 42 cover your situation and it states that the hand is live. Disqualification from the event after the hand is possible (according to the rules) but that is for repeat offenders. I always try to focus on the intent of the player; if it's intentional then I believe you have more leverage in your decision. Your original question stated that it was accidental....now how we make that determination, with certainty, is another question. Imagine me asking how you could ask such a question? I'm glad you did.
Take a look at my suggestion in that section. I know it would be asking a lot to make such a change but, I'm trying to express the seriousness of any exposed card, intentional or otherwise. There are rules for future repremand, but very little for the damage done while the hand is in progress.
That's how I see it.
-
I think Chet said it right. We don't use passive play in these situations. The player is simply left at a disadvantage in the hand and gets to play it how he sees fit under the circumstances, which would include folding in turn.
The penalty comes after the hand and repeat offenders would get stronger penalties up to disqualification. Though I think it is most frequently unintentional and playing out the hand at a disadvantage is almost penalty enough.
-
Jasper Too,
I agree with you, and Chet, and everyone else, but what about the players affected during the hand in progress? So he plays with an exposed hand, and he is at a disadvantage, but what about protection for the non-offending players? Let's think this one out. We've had one response from the top brass in the last 200 posts, so I guess we're on our own.
-
This is all crystal clear now but are you sure this would apply to cash games because as Stuart has mentioned in previous posts, "In tournaments its the whole game and cash its the hand in progress" which tells me that in a cash game the cards would be mucked in this situation.
-
Andy,
You say it is crystal clear to you, but it isn't for me....in fact, it's getting worse. If the player was dropping out of the hand, or folding when the cards were exposed then they would be announced by the dealer and mucked. If the player wanted to continue playing after he accidentally exposed his cards, his hand is live. Stuart mentioned some rules in Europe where cards were killed as soon as they were exposed. I know of no such rule in any cardroom in the United States, for cash games or tournaments, that kills a players hand for accidental exposure.
-
Wolfster: I have searched RRoP, v11 and I cannot find anything that deals with cards exposed by a player, during a cash game, other than a very brief statement as follows from section 3, Irregularities, #12:
"12. Procedure for an exposed card varies with the poker form, and is given in the section for each game. A card that is flashed by a dealer is treated as an exposed card. A card that is flashed by a player will play. To obtain a ruling on whether a card was exposed and should be replaced, a player should announce that the card was flashed or exposed before looking at it. A downcard dealt off the table is an exposed card." I added the emphasis to the 3rd sentence.
In section 15, Tournaments, #22, RRoP says:
"22. Showing cards from a live hand during the action injures the rights of other players still competing in an event, who wish to see contestants eliminated. A player in a multihanded pot may not show any cards during a deal. Heads-up, a player may not show any cards unless the event has only two remaining players, or is winner-take-all. If a player deliberately shows a card, the player may be penalized (but his hand will not be ruled dead). Verbally stating one’s hand during the play may be penalized."
So, my answer to your question regarding cash games would be to check the 'House Rules'. If the topic is not addressed, perhaps it should be.
Hope this helps!!
-
Fair enough, and house rules are house rules. Although in a tournament anyway the hand is ruled live even if exposed, it leaves the player at a huge disadvantage and allowing him/her to check/bet raise call fold all in just seems obscure to me. The players know what you have so I dont see why the player isnt skipped if it isnt a dead hand until showdown, and leave any bets after the person who exposed their cards into a side pot. Although may not be the rules it just seems weird to me.
I appreciate this topic has been discussed in great detail and that is why I thank those of you who have commented but as a person wanting to start a job in being a croupier, I can only express my confusion as a beginner.
-
Most of the responses I have read seem to feel that a penalty for exposing your cards is a small price to pay for disrupting play. I normally go right to a one round penalty in all no limit games because exposed cards do influence how a hand plays out. Regardless of the players intent, it needs to be clear that a consequence DOES occur whenever action gets "messed up". A one round penalty with antes can be a very devastating consequence- it can cripple a player's chip stack and on some occasions has resulted in the offender being blinded out.
Remember that the penalty is supposed to be a speeding ticket, a fine paid in chips as a reminder that you will not be allowed to interfer with the normal course of play. We do not want it to be a death sentence for running a stop sign. I contend that one round or more can be a huge penalty...
-
Dave,
What about the hand in progress? We are all in agreement about some type of penalty in a tournament. My concerns are for the protection of non-offending players involved in the current hand. How do you feel about allowing players the option of playing for the pot (all-in) or suspending further betting? In cash games, I've actually stopped any further betting in similar situations.
Any thoughts?
-
I like to think I have answers for tournament situations but do not want to presume I know anything more about "live" game rules than anyone else. The forum focus is on tournaments, we obviously have a full plate trying to hone the wording , understanding, and interpretation of them.
I will say this in response to Nick, I have asked offenders to leave our live games because they were constantly acting out of turn and not protecting the other players.
-
Thanks Dave,
I try not to initiate the cash game but, so many questions are directed at them. I like your answer.
-
Another question, if your hand isnt dead when exposed during a hand, do you still have the option to fold when it is your turn?
-
Another question, if your hand isnt dead when exposed during a hand, do you still have the option to fold when it is your turn?
Yes.
-
We also impose a one round penalty for intentionally exposing a card or cards. If it appears to be accidental we issue a warning for the first time.
-
We are all in agreement that some penalty or warning should be issued to the player that exposed their cards. Is there anyone that would object to suspending any further betting? Or, allowing non-offending players the option of declaring themselves in for the amount of the pot before the card was exposed?
-
Yes!
Why not just follow the existing penalty system. I fail to see what is wrong with what we already have. Adding other options, while nice, will just confuse things. Pretty soon, someone will be wanting to rule a player all-in because their hole cards were not protected or something just as bad.
-
Chet,
I'm not objecting to the current penalty system. I am mearly trying to include an additional fix for the hand in progress. I like the penalty for exposing a card. I just don't see how it helps the players that could be affected in the hand where the infraction occurred. Dealing the player out for one hand, or four rotations, or disqualifying him is not going to help the player that busted-out because of his exposed hand. The intent of the player, along with his reputation should always be considered when making a decision. I thought that stopping any further bets would be a good way to prevent further damage to any non-offending player.
Chet, I've got you down for; Leave the damn rule alone, Nick, are you nuts?
Anybody else?
-
Nick: I really don't understand your line of reasoning behind the following statement:
"I just don't see how it helps the players that could be affected in the hand where the infraction occurred. Dealing the player out for one hand, or four rotations, or disqualifying him is not going to help the player that busted-out because of his exposed hand."
An exposed card for one player puts that player at a HUGE DISadvantage compared to the rest of the players. Every other player in the hand now has a great amount of information they did not have prior. I fail to see the need to penalize the player who exposed a card inadvertently.
If a player busts out, because he has MORE information than he otherwise would, isn't it more likely he would have busted out anyway?
I cannot remember a situation where an exposed card caused a player to bust out of a tournament. It has probably happened, but is it frequent enough to warrant the creation of a new rule and/or penalty.
That's all folks!!
-
Chet,
Please, take some time to look over my explanation on earlier replies. If you don't see it the way I do, that's fine. I respect your opinion and your answers are always; by the book and very well written. Most of the time, an exposed card does not change the outcome of a hand, however, I think that we have to make sure that the offending player knows how serious it could be.