PokerTDA
POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS => Suggestions for new TDA rules and amendments to existing rules READ-ONLY ARCHIVES Pre-2011 Summit => Topic started by: Stuart Murray on February 07, 2011, 07:27:40 PM
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As per topic 'using a calulator in a hand' http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=292.0
wsopmcgee made an excellent point which should be considered where rule 4 states
Tournament and satellite seats will be randomly assigned. Accommodations for players with special physical needs will be made when possible.
by dropping the word 'Physical' from this sentance it therefore covers any eventuality and does not specifically relate to seating as it merely states accommodations for players in a new sentence. This would also make this rule more compliant with the European Convention on Human Rights, I am sure there will be a similar act in force in North America or state by state.
Regards
Stuart
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I say Aye!
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"Accommodations for players with special physical needs will be made when possible."
This basically means that, if a player uses a wheelchair, room will be made at the table to allow the player to fit at the table, if a player is overweight, room will be made, if a player cannot see, assistance will be given so that the information pertaining to the community cards is understood (without assistance in the play of a hand), etc.
Poker is not a physical sport. It is a game in which knowledge, experience, strategy, psychology, and calculations are used to compete for money.
"Accommodations for players with special physical needs will be made when possible" does not allow for assistance in any of these aspects. It merely allows players to be able to compete without assisting them in the process of competing.
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Stuart,
It's a perfect fix. Write it that way (eliminate physical) so everyone understands what you are saying. The next thing you know, they'll want me to turn in my pace maker and hearing aid....oh, and don't forget my Casio watch with the built-in calculator.
I can agree that poker may not be considered a sporting event. However, I'm sure that the producers of ESPN and other sporting venues that air poker tournaments might give you an argument. Some bowlers, and race drivers, and even chess players are far from athletic. It's all about competition, and poker is about as competitive as it gets.
That's how I see it.
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Stuart: Great Suggestion!! I do think however that it should be the player's responsibility to be able to document whatever circumstances cause them to take advantage of this accommodation. Some circumstances are obvious, some are not. I don't know how one would document the circumstances that were described in the beginning of the thread that started this, but there must be a way.
FYI: The United States legislation is called the "American's with Disabilities Act" aka, ADA.
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I do think however that it should be the player's responsibility to be able to document whatever circumstances cause them to take advantage of this accommodation.
FYI: The United States legislation is called the "American's with Disabilities Act" aka, ADA.
"Here's my report card from school. I failed all of my math classes. Can I use a calculator in the World Series Of Poker?"
Once in a while, some people try to twist circumstances into an ADA issue. The change being proposed in this and the previous thread makes no sense.
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DJC, your comment about 'here's my math's report' is derogatory and wholly uncalled for, this is a discussion of reviewing rule 4 and not about the thread that the the rule change suggestion originated. Even without being the original thread poster about the calculator scenario, I find your remark offensive and highly questionable in taste, the lady in question had a medically proven condition which you have chosen to belittle which is tantamount to disability discrimination.
It is obvious from the other posts that others find it a valid suggestion to LOOK at the rule's wording, what you have done is build a house of cards for yourself.
Chet an excellent response, I think looking in particular at the thread about using a calculator, that having documented information for the Tournament Director is a way forward for more obscure or unheard of conditions which may affect a players ability to play the game.
I am all for poker being a game where everyone can participate, the blind have braille cards, so anything that can be done to assist players who have a special need within reason should be welcomed.
Regards
Stuart
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No reasonable individual would think that my post about having failed math in school is derogatory or offensive. I made no reference to anyone when I wrote what I wrote. So saying what you said, Stuart, in an effort to try to get me on the defensive, does not work.
In Andy's example, he said, "Well she just needs help counting up the chips to equal the relevant bet." A "reasonable accommodation" is to ask a dealer to pull the bet from one's stack, if the player chooses to call.
My point was that, if an exception is made for one person, exceptions must be made for everyone. And some people would bring whatever documentation that they would need to get help like this. Believe it or not, there are some liars and cheaters in poker. And they will do whatever they can to gain any edge.
Possibly, if/when someone who is more recognized as an authority in poker gives his/her opinion on this matter, opinions may change. Although some people who still disagree may still choose to make exceptions.
Also, Stuart, you have repeatedly referred to me as DJC, instead of DCJ, for some reason. The first couple of times that you did it, I assumed that they were typos. But, the last several times that you did it, I started wondering. It doesn't bother me. It is just an observation.
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Maybe Stuart is dyslectic. Does that give him basis for an accommodation. :)
FWIW DCJ, while I did not find your comments quite a offensive as it appears Stuart did, I found them unnecessary and inappropriate for this discussion. As for your grades in math, there is a significant difference between a disability that can be established by competent documentation and a report card for someone who maybe just didn't pay attention. Or maybe that person got crappy grades because he acted as the class clown and pissed off all his teachers. I don't know, but I don't think a lousy report card is going to get you any kind of an accommodation in any event I am involved with.
While you make a good point about cheaters and such, keeping those types OUT is part of our job as a TD, is it not? Before the Moneymaker 'boom' life was pretty easy for most of us. There weren't more than a few hundred good players in the whole of the land. Now life is certainly different and we as TDs need to 'get with the program'. At least that is how it appears to me.
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Hi all,
apologies DCJ for what was a typo, I do on occasion not recognize patterns correctly and for some reason I replied DJC and then never studied the username again in order to determine if it was correct or not - perhaps there is a degree of dyslexia in there, but I think more likely just a case of pattern recognition being (slightly) misplaced from time to time.
We as TD's are paid to make the difficult decisions, often for substantial sums of money, I would rather 'weed' out undesirable players rather as avoiding a change to rules because it alters our comfort level.
With regard to 'getting you on defensive' that it for yourself and the moderator to decide whether your comments are suitable for a public forum, which should be encouraging all walks to engage in relevant discussion, without feeling intimidated, humiliated, inferior or unqualified to participate, much the same way I aim to run my poker tournaments.
Regards
Stu
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Stuart,
I'm with you. There are over 1200 members in the TDA and for the most part, the Discussion Forum has been pretty civil. Let's try to keep it that way. I can see how some members would be intimidated and reluctant to participate in these discussions. I would like to see some intervention from any of our five star members. Perhaps that will help keep the Forum open for everyone to participate without being embarrassed or humiliated. We will never all agree, but we have the right to voice our opinion.
Thanks for listening
Nick C
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What do you think about this?
Should dealers call out hand possibilities after the flop, turn, and river? If the board reads 6c Kd 7c A9 10c after the river, should it be okay for the dealer to say, "Possible straight, possible flush, possible straight flush" ?
Some people with difficulties recognizing patterns and sequences may not understand that their two pair hands are most likely behind if there's a bet and a raise before it is their turn to act. And this type of "accommodation" would be very helpful. I've seen a number of situations over the years in which players overlooked the possibilities of better hands than theirs existing.
Should a person with pattern/sequence recognition difficulties be able to bring documentation to a poker tournament to allow for this to occur? Or should dealers be doing this at all tables, in an effort to, especially, assist players who are new to the game? Does doing this violate "one player to a hand," or does it not, because the information is being shared among everyone at the table, thereby not giving any one player an advantage?
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Dealers must never announce the board unless they are dealing stud. Pairs will be called out as soon as they are dealt, and possible straights and flushes can only be announced on sixth street and only in lower limit games. The exception to the rule would be for the dealer to call out the board cards at the request of a player that is having a tough time seeing the cards, possible problems with the reflection of a light or something of that nature. Beyond that, it would be totally inappropriate for the dealer to read the board aloud.
If a special circumstance warranted reading the board, and it was agreeable to all players and management, I guess it would be okay. Otherwise, it should NEVER be practiced by the dealer, or players at any time.
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It sounds, to me, that some people will rationalize any excuse to change the rules in an attempt to make themselves and/or other people happy, even if making the change isn't the right thing to do.
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DCJ001,
Now you're starting to get it. Making other players happy is part of the TD's job, and that should make you happy too.
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We are olbigated both morally and ethically to make REASONABLE efforts to accomodate those players' with special needs.
It can be managed into acceptable forms. A mirrored box to allow an individual to illuminate and magnify the cards can be outlawed if it offers an unfair advantage to the player with special needs-so redesign it. A calculator at the table would not be appropriate during the actual play of a hand any more than a computer or a private tutor- so what does help the person? A person who signs to communicate cannot have an assistant sittiing behind you signing. They may stand away from the table to relay tournament announcements and they can use written notes. Accomodate, but not at the expense of the other players.
The point: Common sense reigns, you cannot make your hold'em table eight-handed just because two or more people are obese.
Hopefully, Dave's logic will be understood and used so that tournaments and cash games can be managed responsibly, without unnecessarily offering an advantage to some players.
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I'm still with Stuart, Jasper too, Chet and Andy. Why not put it to a vote?
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I'm sure it will be discussed at the next TDA Conference, let them argue it out there.
Regards
Stuart
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Maybe I am getting a little thick or maybe Dave is being facetious. All I know is that I don't understand what he said.
Now I'm confused, does that mean if I suffer from Dyscalculia I can bring my calculator to your cardroom or not Dave, in fact my head hurts lol
Regards
Stuart
It's unfortunate that at least two people do not understand Dave's opinion, as he posted it, with regard to people using calculators while playing in poker tournaments or cash games for money.
My understanding of Dave's opinion is that allowing anyone to use a calculator at a poker table is unfair to everyone else in the tournament or at the table in a cash game.
It's also unfortunate that at least one person in this thread who trains dealers does understand Dave's opinion, but he feels that calculators should be allowed anyway.
I'm sure it will be discussed at the next TDA Conference, let them argue it out there.
Regards
Stuart
Discussing this topic at the TDA conference would be a distraction and a complete waste of time.
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DCJ001,
I would love to see you standing at the bench of the European Court of Human Rights or a similar court across the pond saying that discussing this rule is a "waste of time"
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Perhaps Dave's explanation left too much room for interpretation.
When Dave said:
We are olbigated both morally and ethically to make REASONABLE efforts to accomodate those players' with special needs.
Dave stressed the word "reasonable." Having players make room for an overweight player or a player in a wheelchair would be a reasonable accommodation. In my opinion, allowing one person to use a calculator would not be reasonable because it opens the door to allow everyone to use a calculator which, in my opinion, goes against one of the fundamentals of the game - players should use their intellect as a part of the competitive process.
Dave also said:
A mirrored box to allow an individual to illuminate and magnify the cards can be outlawed if it offers an unfair advantage to the player with special needs.
In my opinion, allowing one player, and not the rest of the field, to use a calculator offers an unfair advantage to the one player.
Dave also said:
A calculator at the table would not be appropriate during the actual play of a hand any more than a computer or a private tutor.
In my opinion, Dave suggests that calculators, computers, and private tutors at the poker table are inappropriate.
And Dave said:
Accomodate, but not at the expense of the other players.
I should not need to explain what this means to anyone who speaks and understands the English language. But, after reading the responses of some of the individuals in this forum, I wonder if an explanation should be necessary. And I wonder a logical explanation would be understood.
Dave also said:
The point: Common sense reigns, you cannot make your hold'em table eight-handed just because two or more people are obese.
"Common sense." In this example, rather than reducing the number of players who should be at the table, which would not be a reasonable accommodation to the overweight players, because it changes the fundamentals of the game, the standard number of players should adjust their seats apart from each other or slightly away from the table so that the standard number of players has enough room, which would be a reasonable accommodation.
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Hi,
Sorry I haven't been keeping up with this thread, I apologize. Of course this makes perfect sense. As an example, my dad is 88 and plays regularly. He doesn't see well at all and every T worth their salt assigns him a middle seat (as long as he lets them know) and it is perfect. We tend to think of physical needs as wheelchairs etc. We shouldn't stipulate the need but rather that we'll do our best to accommodate everyone. It will be duly noted for the upcoming 2011 Summit.
Thanks,
Jan Fisher
TDA Board.
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color blind players. is that a physical handicap?
So many tournaments have chips that so close in color that even normal vision players have great difficulty.
One places uses dark red, dark blue and dark purple all in play at the same time.
A serious and unneeded disadvantage for players with even mild colorblindness.
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Brent: Are you serious? You know as well as anyone that color blindness is a physical handicap.
Unfortunately, I have no idea what the TDA could do to remedy the situation you describe. Adoption and adherence to any Rules (other than Gaming Authority) much less TDA Rules is totally optional. The only possible thing would be education. The problem relates to dollars. Chips cost money and replacing a whole set of "T" chips would be a significant expense.
Chet