PokerTDA

POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS => Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General => Topic started by: Ash on October 25, 2017, 04:51:26 PM

Title: Undercall: Hold the player to a call or give them the option to fold?
Post by: Ash on October 25, 2017, 04:51:26 PM
Hi guys
Two examples, quite easy situations for you but i'm not sure if we have to consider these as undercalls

1) 150/300, preflop, one player raises 600, small blind didn't see the raise and throws multiple chips just to call BB. Do you force him to call the raise or does he have the choice just to call (or fold and the 300 remain in the pot)?
2) post flop with multiplayers, one bet 3000, call, all in 5500, and the fourth player just calls the 3000 with two chips. Same question, compulsory call of the allin player or he can fold?

Thank you
Title: Re: Call or not?
Post by: Boris Mauboussin on October 25, 2017, 05:35:00 PM
Hello Ash,

To me, both are the same situation.

Player has the option to fold and give up his chips already in the pot (300 for case 1 and 3.000 for case 2) or to complete to the right amount since he's not facing an opening bet and also involved in multiway pot.
Title: Re: Call or not?
Post by: Dave Miller on October 26, 2017, 05:30:04 AM
I agree with Boris, and add that he does not have the option to raise (not that you asked...)
Title: Re: Call or not?
Post by: Max D on October 26, 2017, 08:30:51 AM
Rule 39 B: An undercall is a mandatory full call if made in turn facing 1) any bet heads-up or 2) the opening bet on any round multi-way.

1 & 2 at TDs discretion player may be required to make a full call or allowed to forfeit the undercall and fold.

So I think we agree that player will be given the option, but the TD can make the decision for him as well.
Title: Re: Call or not?
Post by: Ash on October 26, 2017, 04:59:55 PM
Good

In both cases if the player throws only one oversized chip you all agree it is a full call of the last bet?
And if he throws only one undersized chip, you still consider this as an undercall with the two options for the player?
Title: Undercall: Hold the player to a call or give them the option to fold?
Post by: MikeB on October 26, 2017, 10:34:04 PM
Rule 39 B: An undercall is a mandatory full call if made in turn facing 1) any bet heads-up or 2) the opening bet on any round multi-way.

1 & 2 at TDs discretion player may be required to make a full call or allowed to forfeit the undercall and fold.

This rule was adopted at the 2013 Summit at the Venetian. Sam Quinto and Jack Effel proposed these guidelines and they have held up very well.

Important to note that the option to leave the undercall in and fold is at TDs discretion. This is a good topic for 2019 to see if the membership wants to skew this towards, for example, enforcing calls except in cases of "gross misunderstanding" (to borrow a RROP term), or to leave as-is.

Thanks for re-visiting this very important issue!