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Title: How do blind bets affect substantial action?
Post by: MikeB on March 24, 2017, 02:14:33 PM
If there are multiple blind bets (i.e. multiple actions with chips involved) prior to the initial deal, has substantial action occurred?

This subject is the topic of the following thread:
http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=1378.msg12006#msg12006
Title: Re: How do blind bets affect substantial action?
Post by: Nick C on March 24, 2017, 05:32:45 PM
Mike,

 Blinds should never be considered in substantial action unless there are at least two actions following the BB.

 the example given on the link you mentioned involved multiple "blind" bets while the dealer was dealing, and before players knew their own holdings. The question is: Should it make any difference? I say no...Bets were made and substantial action followed. That's how I see it.
Title: Re: How do blind bets affect substantial action?
Post by: BROOKS on March 25, 2017, 06:57:50 AM
I know this situation isn't as common in tournaments as it is in cash games, but it does still happen.
For instance a short  stack going all in blind UTG and guy next to him calls (blind). What if this happens during the pitch, before the deal is complete, and you realize an error such as the puck being in the wrong spot. Do those 2 blind actions count as substantial action? Or can we call a misdeal and correct the error?
Title: Re: How do blind bets affect substantial action?
Post by: Max D on March 27, 2017, 11:52:03 AM
I know this situation isn't as common in tournaments as it is in cash games, but it does still happen.
For instance a short  stack going all in blind UTG and guy next to him calls (blind). What if this happens during the pitch, before the deal is complete, and you realize an error such as the puck being in the wrong spot. Do those 2 blind actions count as substantial action? Or can we call a misdeal and correct the error?
I think in this case the player have acted in turn and created substantial actions (UTG is first to act once he has two cards and then called rule 38), therefore rule 34D  applies (Once substantial action occurs a misdeal cannot be declared; the hand must proceed)...
Title: Re: How do blind bets affect substantial action?
Post by: Motobaka72 on April 15, 2017, 08:43:50 PM
Sorry to highjack your thread but this is something that came to mind while reading it.

Ok so letīs say UTG declares all in and +1 says he pays.  Both actions are in turn and substantial action is complete.  Then dealer misdeals, something like turning two cards while pitching.  What then?

I went ahead and ask two floor men at my casino.  Both concluded that it is a situation they donít want to be in and donít know what to do.

Misdeal canít be declared because there is substantial action, but you still need to give to players a new card because of the two exposed ones.  So, do u give the one that was going to be burned to the first exposed card and then shuffle to exchange the second exposed card with a new one?
Title: Re: How do blind bets affect substantial action?
Post by: BROOKS on April 16, 2017, 05:07:05 AM
Welcome to my world. This has happened on more than one occasion. It's a situation you don't want to be in, but that's why I brought it up here. To hear peoples opinions and reasoning
Title: Re: How do blind bets affect substantial action?
Post by: Nick C on April 16, 2017, 08:15:24 AM
Matobaka,

 Your example is a bit confusing: "Then dealer misdeals, something like turning two cards while pitching.  What then?" I'd like you to be a little more exact with your example. The dealer is not in the act of pitching if he is burning and turning in any flop game. Are you describing two cards being exposed on the turn, instead of one? If so, I would make every attempt to preserve the proper rivercard by setting aside the two cards exposed in error and replace the turn card with the proper river.
I would then shuffle the two cards into the stub and burn and turn.

 I also assume that the two players were head to head, therefore no further betting was possible. That's it...what else could you do?
Title: Re: How do blind bets affect substantial action?
Post by: BROOKS on April 16, 2017, 12:28:20 PM
Hes talking  about exposing 2 cards during the pitch. What do you do then, that calls for a misdeal, but apparently the those blind actions count as substantial action and you "can't" call a misdeal....
Title: Re: How do blind bets affect substantial action?
Post by: Nick C on April 16, 2017, 02:57:07 PM
Brooks,

 If I were given the exact account of the mistakes I will better be able to explain how it is resolved. I need more info from Motobaka72. Still remains too unclear.
Title: Re: How do blind bets affect substantial action?
Post by: Dave Miller on April 17, 2017, 06:34:30 AM
Let me see if I have the scenario right:
A short stack under the gun goes all in. UTG+1 calls. Both actions are blind - they happened while the dealer was shuffling / dealing. Then something happens that would otherwise be ruled a misdeal.

This seems like a no-brainer. It's a misdeal.

While technically their actions are binding and would otherwise cancel a misdeal, that rule is generally meant for errors discovered after the deal is complete, such as a player with too few/many cards.

In this scenario I seriously doubt any player (other than one who already looked and saw a monster hand) would expect anything other than a misdeal, and would rule it as such.

Technically, the actions were out of turn, since the action was on the dealer to complete the deal before the UTG acts.

Also, the scenario where the dealer forgot to give the button his second card, or accidentally gives the small blind an extra card isn't a misdeal. It gets fixed whether there was action or not.

Or, use the example of casino pit rules that forbid players from touching their cards until after the dealing is complete.

Last, there's good old Rule One.

Bottom line, it's a misdeal.

Note that I would also rule that the blind actions are still binding for the re-deal.


Title: Re: How do blind bets affect substantial action?
Post by: Nick C on April 17, 2017, 01:47:24 PM
If what Dave has written is what happened I agree with him...it's a misdeal.
Title: Re: How do blind bets affect substantial action?
Post by: Motobaka72 on April 18, 2017, 05:58:36 PM
If what Dave has written is what happened I agree with him...it's a misdeal.

He got it.  Misdeal it is then.

Thanks!
Title: Re: How do blind bets affect substantial action?
Post by: BillM16 on April 25, 2017, 10:16:22 AM
This topic has morphed into two separate issues:


TDA Rule #34, Part D:
Once substantial action occurs a misdeal cannot be declared; the hand must proceed (See Rule 35).

IMO: This rule part prohibits the ability to call a misdeal after substantial action occurred following the completion of the initial deal. For example, if a seat entitled to hand was dealt out or the button was in the wrong position and the first card was dealt to the wrong seat.  In these cases, a misdeal could not be declared if there were substantial action.  The premature action of players, before the initial deal is complete, cannot be considered either binding or substantial, until the initial deal is complete.  In other words, premature actions are binding and may be substantial if a misdeal does not occur.

As to the first issue:  Blinds and antes are forced wagers that are not consider substantial action for obvious reasons.

Regards,
B~


Title: Re: How do blind bets affect substantial action?
Post by: Nick C on April 25, 2017, 02:35:56 PM
Bill,

 In order for substantial action to occur at least two players must act following the blinds (UTG and UTG+1). If a player were dealt out and two players act after the BB...that's substantial action and the hand should continue.
Your first issue:

 1. Should blinds be included in the definition of substantial action? NO

 2. Should substantial action (traditional definition) be binding if a misdeal occurs before the initial deal is complete? NO

You also wrote: " In other words, premature actions are binding and may be substantial if a misdeal does not occur."
  I assume you are referring to multiple premature actions...or are you holding a single premature action to his bet, also?


As to the first issue:  Blinds and antes are forced wagers that are not consider substantial action for obvious reasons.
An ante is never considered a wager

Title: Re: How do blind bets affect substantial action?
Post by: Brian Vickers on May 16, 2017, 12:22:20 PM
This might be a good place to breach the suggestion that "significant action may not take place prior to completion of the deal."  Maybe with the addition of "actions that take place in advance of the completion of the deal are binding actions; however, they do not count towards significant action for purposes of a misdeal."
Title: Re: How do blind bets affect substantial action?
Post by: Steff0111 on May 16, 2017, 11:47:40 PM
This might be a good place to breach the suggestion that "significant action may not take place prior to completion of the deal."  Maybe with the addition of "actions that take place in advance of the completion of the deal are binding actions; however, they do not count towards significant action for purposes of a misdeal."

Brian,
thatīs a good one! I like it!